Can Nuclear Power the Arctic and Remote Communities with Dr. Anthony Ciccone

How do you power the places the grid forgot — and could nuclear be the answer?

In this episode, Stewart Muir is joined by Dr. Anthony Ciccone, Senior Vice President of the Global Nuclear Sector at WSP, to explore how small modular reactors could transform energy access in some of the most challenging environments on Earth.

From Canada’s Arctic to remote regions around the world, Ciccone explains why traditional energy solutions often fall short — and how advanced nuclear technologies are changing the equation.

They discuss:

• Why remote and northern communities still rely on diesel — and the risks involved
• How small modular reactors (SMRs) could provide reliable, low-carbon power
• Why nuclear and renewables are complementary, not competing technologies
• Canada’s advantage in nuclear innovation and reactor refurbishment
• The realities of nuclear waste — and how it’s managed
• The economics of nuclear energy and long-term cost considerations
• Energy needs of mining, military, and northern communities
• What the future of nuclear looks like in Canada and globally

This is a conversation about energy, infrastructure, and the realities of powering communities far beyond the grid.

At a time when energy security and sustainability are both critical priorities, nuclear is re-emerging as a practical solution — not just for cities, but for the most remote parts of the world.

The question is no longer whether nuclear is part of the future — but where it will be deployed first.

#PowerStruggle #NuclearEnergy #SMR #AnthonyCiccone #EnergyPolicy #CanadaEnergy #Arctic #EnergySecurity #CleanEnergy #RemoteCommunities

The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.

Reach out to us with thoughts, questions, or ideas at info@powerstruggle.ca

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Transcript

Why Remote Power Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Here on the Power Struggle podcast, we love looking at the challenges of energy, supplying the world with the energy it needs to do what people want to do with their lives. And today I have Dr. Anthony Cecconi here. He's an expert in an area of energy that he spent his career on, asking a question most people don't think to ask. How do you actually power the places that the grid forgot? He's the senior vice president of the global nuclear sector at WSP. That's at the intersection of engineering reality and energy policy across new builds and refurbishment and waste management. We're going to hear all about this. Dr. Anthony Chocone, welcome to Power Struggle.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Aaron Powell Thank you, sir. Pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I hear you're a bit of an expert in the world of small modular reactors.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Aaron Ross Powell I know a little bit about the subject. I've been involved in it for a few years now. It's uh it's topical, very much so across the globe, and especially in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Well, recently I heard you speak in Calgary, Alberta, and that's why I'm inviting you on to Power Struggle today, because I was just fascinated by what you brought to the stage. Because we were talking about northern Canada. I think Arctic and remote places generally, and uh what you had to say clearly had the room on edge. People were not on edge. I mean, on the edge of their seats, they wanted to hear more. Um, and and you you brought uh your insights into it because there's an instinct in energy policy to treat renewables and nuclear as competitors. And I think one thing I left thinking um about was wait a minute, is that an assumption that is going to be as convincing when you look at the remote north and and some of your ideas about how uh that's powered? So I thought that could be a really great jumping-off point, including the comparison of nuclear versus what uh what people see as the alternative future of energy in their lives, especially in places that are uh challenging to develop energy for. So um that's what I wanted to talk with you about today.

Nuclear And Renewables As Teammates

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Okay, awesome. Yeah, that that that's a great topic. And uh renewables and and nuclear are really complementary. They're not competing against each other. And you certainly take it of the view is that renewables are there to lower the amount of energy that you would use in most cases, or amount of energy that's being generated. Nuclear generates base load. Is there as a replacement for the existing uh power generation, uh carbon-intense fuels, and it provides a carbon-free uh energy source, which is uh, you know, gives you quite a bit of uh sustainability in the future when you look at the total greenhouse gas uh uh life cycle. So if they are not competing, they are complementary to one another. So especially up in the north, where we don't have a lot of uh uh you know water and such things as that that are very important. Nuclear can fit in quite well. And you know, renewable energies such as solar and wind, well, sometimes the sun don't shine and the wind doesn't blow all at the opportune times. And nuclear provides that backbone of base load power that everyone needs.

From Nuclear Waste To SMRs

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Now, Ethien, I just wanted to start by looking at your uh preparation and your credentials for being the expert you are in this space. You have a PhD in this area. Uh tell us about where you got that from and how you narrowed your focus in your studies.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Okay, well, actually, my PhD is in mechanical engineering at uh from the University of Toronto. Uh, but I started off when I came out of uh uh I came out of school with an engineering degree. I was hired on by uh a consulting firm. And it's like most young engineers, you're eager to do any work being thrown at you. So they started throwing interesting projects like uh nuclear waste at me and said they needed me to figure out uh how much waste was being generated, not by the power plants, but from research reactors, from medical facilities, because Canada did not have an inventory of waste. So I started dabbling in that and I became more and more interested in that as we got along. Started looking at uh the impact of nuclear on uh on people and animals and livelihoods. But eventually nuclear took a bit of a uh downturn at the time. So I went back to school to get a PhD in mechanical engineering. And one of the things I was looking at was, believe it or not, nuclear tailings up in Elliott Lake and what the impact of the tailings would be on the environment. So that introduced me into nuclear in a big way. And over the last you know few years, I've gotten more involved in nuclear power generation and uh what's required to make that happen. So I wouldn't call myself an you know an esteemed expert. There's a lot of people out there who are significantly smarter than I am when it comes to nuclear sciences. Uh, I'm one that's been adapting to uh to the changing world and being able to introduce nuclear uh to a lot of my friends and uh and colleagues as well as clients and what nuclear can do for uh for a community in the in the Arctic or let's say even in Africa, for example.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

So if you're talking about Africa or the Arctic of Canada, what are some of the fundamentals that are challenging to serve power to people?

SMRs Are Real And Canada Leads

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Both Africa and the Arctic had one thing in common, and that is uh harsh environments. So in African environments, obviously you have deserts and it's very arid and not much water. In the Arctic, similar six nights, a lot colder up there, obviously, but the amount of water available for uh for cooling is not is not there. So both require a particular type of SMR, or as we call them now, advanced modular reactors, AMRs, to be able to fit the need in those particular uh areas of uh of use. So what we're looking for in both locations are SMRs or AMRs that do not require log water. And right now the world and uh the US and others are developing these types of reactors that where you don't need water for cooling. You're using things like molten salt, molten lead, helium, or or air in some cases as being the uh medium to be able to generate electricity.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Now we've been hearing quite a lot about it. Initially, as you say, it was small, modular, and now there seems to be a preference for advanced. I don't know if that's because they're not as small as we thought, or maybe uh advanced is a better term. But um uh even though we're talking about them, are they real? Like is there a deployable commercial product today? Yes, there is.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Uh we can see what is happening right here in Canada, Darlington, Ontario Power Generations nuclear power plant. Uh we they're erecting the first uh SMR from G Hitachi 300 megawatt uh facility. That's one of four. There will be four built on uh on the site. Uh so we've gone from uh concept to actually building it, getting concrete in the ground, getting pipeston, and building a modular system in Canada. So Canada will be the first uh G7 country to have one up and working, and it should be operational uh by 2030. So that's a big step forward. So we've gone from the drawing board to actually getting it going on the ground. And that's one of many uh SMRs that are in the world. Like there's also Rolls Royce, for example, Westinghouse has their version of it, uh X Energy, New Scale. There's a number of um small moduli reactor vendors out there who are looking to get licenses for their products to be able to get them out to uh to the public and generate electricity.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Now it's happening in Darlington. We've got companies like Westinghouse that have got a significant Canadian dimension to them, if I'm not mistaken. And what you're doing, you're in Toronto. Um, is there something Canadian about this story that has given us an edge as a country, or are we just doing what everyone else is doing?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

We have a big edge, and people don't recognize it. We haven't, Canada has not developed uh a reactor. They've had indications of developing their own reactor, but what we've been able to do is is make them work operationally, uh, as well as our governance. So, what I mean by operationally, you look at what's happening at Darlington uh and now and now Pickering as well as Bruce Power, uh, we've been able to refurbish all these reactors. In other words, bring them back to life, extend their lifetimes. As opposed to what other countries do, they tend to just basically tear them down and and uh demolish them. Canada's taking another practical approach. And we've invested all this money in here. Let's see how much more we can get out of it. And what they've done is refurbished the reactors to get more life out of them. So you're going to see these reactors operating for 90 years. Right? That's a significant invest of return on investment than what they originally thought. Rather than tear them down, let's reinvest, let's make them grow. And this demonstrates Canadian innovation, ingenuity. You know, we don't have a lot of money, but the money that we have, we invested uh correctly, and we've invested in the operation and the rebuilds of these uh of these reactors to make them last longer.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Now, Ontario is quite reliant on electricity it gets from nuclear. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Correct. It's about uh, I think it's almost uh 60 to 70 percent of the electricity.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

So so six out of ten toasters in Toronto run from nuclear?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Probably yeah, it's probably a good way to look at it. Roughly.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, okay. Is that high or is that sort of average for a nuclear jurisdiction?

Germany’s Exit And New Safety

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Uh is it high? You know, I don't really know if I can compare it to other jurisdictions like like on the France is maybe up there, or maybe even higher, right? France would be higher because they're virtually all on nuclear as opposed to hydro. Ontario is split between nuclear and and hydro. We no longer have fossil fuel generation here, but we do have some gas generation here for peak uh for peaked uh instances. But uh, you know, it's it's compatible to France, so it makes good sense to generate power.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Another example, we mentioned mentioned France, but we could also point to Germany. And I'm I'm always curious, and I'd like to get your views on this, because I just don't understand why Germany exited nuclear entirely. They shut down all of their nuclear. Here's a clean, green, zero emissions, reliable. Uh once you get it running, economical uh way of getting your power, it let them build this post-war industrial manufacturing behemoth of a country. And now they've decided, uh, let's let's throw that in the bin. We don't we don't like it. What what the heck happened to Germany?

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I can't really speak for them, but from from my point of view, you know, they got caught up with the with the green energy uh highway, and they wanted to be sustainable. And they were worried about what was happening with uh with nuclear. You had Fukushima, which caused them to make a you know a U-turn away from nuclear, and that caused them to think and said, well, no, nuclear is too dangerous. We don't want to get involved in it. Uh, there's too many potential consequences with it. So they reverted to uh to using uh renewables, solar, wind, et cetera. But what they ended up finding is that using solar and wind as a replacement for coal doesn't quite work. So now they've pivoted, and I think they are now seriously considering nuclear could be um a step forward for us because it does provide green, clean, sustainable power.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Is there maybe a technology of nuclear that isn't going to create the same fears, whatever those were in Germany, that led to it being phased out?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Um the new reactors, right? This the SMRs, they basically closed down on themselves. The the Fukushima, the other larger reactors, uh their their technology had a little bit of challenge because they weren't the new one, they weren't the brand new of the newer reactors. Fukushima and Chernova were older reactors. They didn't have all the safety, uh, safety considerations that the new reactors have now. So there's a different technology or different safety requirements that we have now that weren't there. The new reactors, they classically turned themselves off if something goes sideways. So they're safer, they last longer, uh, and they require less operational maintenance than than we had before. It's just the advancement that people have done on these reactors. So they're a lot safer now than they've ever been.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

And that's what's going into Darlington, at least part of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yep. Darlington is now the SMRs at Darlington are are new generation uh small modular reactors that are uh that have been developed at uh G Hitachi.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

So that's maybe why Canadians don't get nervous when we're talking about nuclear, even though in BC, I'm in Vancouver. Um you know, even though it's against the law to have nuclear in BC, uh not that uh there's any likelihood of that happening soon, it would seem. But uh I I don't think anyone I know uh would would say, oh uh I'm concerned if we did have nuclear, because there is this Ontario-based confidence in having that very safe um uh industry in Ontario that served it so well for so long. And it's all it's almost invisible. People don't think about it very much.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

It's yeah, it's it's like the back of your mind right now. You know, you know it's gonna be a reliable power generating 24-7 for you, so you don't really think about it. And I suspect in in due course, you know, Alberta is looking to develop nuclear uh in the province. Saskatchewan is committing to nuclear. Uh, we've seen New Brunswick involved in nuclear. Uh so I can start seeing more and more provinces interested in developing their own nuclear power assets uh to power their their uh their their needs, whether it be, you know, uh uh not what do we call them, their data centers, for example, or other things, or uh industry that require electricity or very high heat. You know, uh they're gonna be turning to nuclear as being their uh their chosen source of power.

The Business Case In The North

SPEAKER_01 14:14

You can kind of figure in the golden horseshoe of Ontario, there's what, 10, 11 million people? Um there's a there's a lot of factor, thousands of factories and millions of hairdryers. So yeah, it makes sense to have uh nuclear, but that's not what we were talking about in Calgary recently. This this is for a tiny population. How many people are in Northwest territories? Is it not more than 40,000 or so? Is it? Um across the whole north of Canada, there's uh not not much into six-digits uh population, I believe. Um And why would such a tiny population want to be served with something as uh large scale as you get uh serving a Germany or a France or an Ontario? What would be the appeal?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That's a great question. You know, why would you want to put up small major reactors up in the north? Well, to there are a number of reasons to do that. You know, one one is the industry development there. Uh you have mining camps being uh being developed there, so mining needs the energy there. Uh you have the military now. We've heard about you know protecting the north and protecting the Arctic. The new military installations will require power as well. So this is going to drive the need for you know sustainable nuclear power or sustainable power in the north with low risk on fuel. You know, right now the north is being pushed by or being operated on diesel. And with that, that comes risk in being able to get enough diesel up there. And then when you have the diesel there, it's got to send in tankers, Kansas obliques and all and all that sort of stuff that can happen up there. With with the with nuclear, you don't worry about that because you go up there, you set up a reactor, small molecule reactor, it can run from either five megawatts to 60 megawatts, whatever you need. And that will generate the power for that uh industry, but you also have heat. And that heat can be provided to nearby communities for their needs, whether it be for hot water, heating their homes, or in fact, just having electricity. So I don't think the communities themselves will drive the need for the drive to nuclear. It will be the industry, and the communities will benefit from having that industry there to generate uh the power and uh heat that they need.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

That would give some motivation to uh keep those industries healthy and uh there, because I've heard a lot of concerns. Another thing that came up in Calgary was that they're seeing industry close down. Mines are getting to end of life. And uh as it happens in the world of mining, if you want to have mining, you need to have the next mine, the next ore body that is uh waiting in line for that. And uh, if you have a gap there, that can create a lot of human dislocation and and uh economic uh uncertainty, which is also what we're seeing in the North. So do you see potentially that nuclear is being talked about by some of your his clients or customers, the right term, um the people who want your product uh as being part of you know making economic investment stickier? If they can say, hey, we're gonna have nuclear for you, and that will allow your industry to operate for decades into the future?

Sovereignty And Triple Use Power

SPEAKER_00 17:24

In fact, that's already started. We've uh we've had some our some of our mining clients uh interested in knowing what it what would it take uh to develop a nuclear facility up in there in in the north somewhere. So we've looked at that uh with with them and come up with some analysis on how nuclear can work up there. The interesting thing is when you're developing a new uh a mining uh mining facility, it takes about 15 years to uh to develop it from you know, sip to nuts something to get the permits and be able to start digging out the ore. That's almost the same time frame it'll take for uh for for new nuclear reactors to get permit and whatever. So the tie scale could work well. One of the other things that we are working with, MT is that if you are going to develop new mines and new facilities, you know, think about what you need now, right? So, like for data centers, for example, they need they can put up a data center in two years. Like it's incredible how quickly these guys can get these things up. But we can't put up a nuclear power plant in two years, it takes us some more time. But why not start thinking about right, let's for the time being, let's use a socket measure, let's say gas fire turbines. And then with the idea is that eventually we will ship to nuclear down the road when the when the uh plant when the nuclear SMRs are fully developed and can be be dropped in there. So we're working them to think about just not now, but think about what's gonna happen in in the future so you are ready for it. There's it's gonna be a bit of a bigger footprint that you need for storage of fuel and stuff, stuff like that. But start thinking about it now rather than waiting for do when it's you know convenient because what's gonna happen is that there's gonna be a big demand and you're gonna be at the back of the line waiting for the next L SMR to come off the assembly the assembly plant.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Anyone who owns a globe has probably done what I used to love to do is turn it around and look at the world from different perspectives. If if you take a globe, take the Earth, and you look at it top down, so the Arctic is what you're seeing, um, it looks kind of different than we think of it usually. And what you see is there's Canada, but also there's Russia, there's Alaska, there's some European countries like Finland, there's Greenland, that's what you see. Um you start to think maybe about the geopolitics of of energy. Uh how how do you see nuclear fitting into that different perspective of the world?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

It becomes interesting. We already have a nuclear facility in Russia in the Arctic in their Arctic generating power. It's on a it's on a ship that they uh took up to their Arctic to power a mine in the community up there. So it's already happening really up there. Um Finland and uh the Nordics, they've been talking they've been talking about uh nuclear in their areas as well. So they're collaborating with Canadian companies or excuse me, global companies about putting nuclear up there. So the geopolitics political part of that, I'm not too concerned about. Um, you know, there I think everyone wants to be able to generate power and keep the Arctic sovereign. Our interest in Canada is to keep our Arctic sovereign, and the only way we're going to be able to do that is by having, you know, allowing the uh the military to establish their um their uh radar radar and fields up in the north to be able to monitor what what's going on. So geopolitically, it will be uh sort of an enhancement and give them more uh credibility and be able to generate power there in a long-term period.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Recently at the event you spoke at, um I had a conversation with someone who brought a new idea forward, at least at least it was new to me, uh, this triple use idea. Uh this was a former head of the Canadian Armed Forces, General Wayne Eyre, was on our panel. And uh this idea of triple use is well, three three things being used, uh or served, I guess, uh the the populace, industry, and security or the military. And the things that are likeliest to happen in terms of the future of the North will be tied up in making sure that things have triple use. How do you see nuclear fitting into this concept?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Aaron Powell It's ideally suited for that, for that concept, Stuart. Uh the military need to secure, to have secure power 24-7. Right? The industry needs to have uh power availability, and the communities need heat and power as well. So nuclear can fit into all three buc uh all three buckets, if you like, uh, to be able to do that. And that's the One great thing about nuclear, it just doesn't generate electricity, it can also generate heat uh for communities as well. So it can it can fit into all three buckets and serve uh not more than one thing at at any time.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

So in the north, where you don't have, say, hydro dams, at least not year-round in in some places, you don't have a big scale out of uh wind and solar, you do have diesel, you don't see a lot of natural gas used at this point in time uh for generation of power uh that I'm aware of. Um so the options are kind of limited compared to what you have in the South. Right. Right. So if if you want to be able to support these developments of uh of security, of industry, of human health, and uh being able to stay warm, uh nuclear starts to make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

It it does. And it's really finding the right reactor or the right SMR for the application, right? So that's going to be a key thing there. Like what do you need the SMR? What are the advantages and disadvantages of of having and uh having a nuclear uh SMR sitting sitting there?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

So there's different kinds.

Reactor Types And Waste Questions

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Different kinds of there's different types of reactors that that you can have there. That's one of the important things to look at. Not all not all shoes fit the same foot or different.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Right, and what what are the differences?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Well, so we have as we talk about the there are what we call uh water-based uh reactors, such as the boiling boiling water reactor, which should the G Hitachios. Uh, then you and all of these they rely on water as being a coolant as part of the mix. So if you don't have water, you're not going to be able to really generate the steam to turn a turbine uh and generate electricity. Yeah, new reactors, that's what we talked about. The the advanced modular reactors don't rely on water, they rely on other media such as helium, salt, molten salt, and molten lead as the coolant, and that's gener and that will then generate um uh heat and steam from from that. The real trick comes in is that these are different from traditional. And one of the questions that we usually have to try to figure out an answer is well, okay, what do you do with the waste from these reactors? Because they're all going to be different now. So we have to come up on a way of you know, how do we handle that waste safely and be able to store it away in a deep geological repository for years to come? So that's where we start coming in. You start having to figure out all these different things. When when we talk to the population, you know, they're never worried about the operation of a nuclear reactor. They're worried about what are you doing with the waste that comes out of these things? Who's gonna handle it? How do you handle it? Yeah, is that safe?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Well, how how much waste are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Um basically you're almost you know, for for most people, for it doesn't amount to to a lot. I know when you took it, everything sounds like sounds like a lot, but like waste, it's about I don't know, a couple of buckets per per person over the lifetime, over a life over a lifetime. So it doesn't generate a lot of waste. And and what they're actually thinking of doing now, which I think is really innovative, is they're taking some of the uh spent fuel reactor rots that we have in in Canada and being able to recycle them through the advanced reactors to be able to cycle more more energy out of those uh out of those reactors. So it's really cool what the thing is, it's almost like let's reuse the waste, it's like energy from waste.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Uh yeah, that's what we want to hear more about.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Yeah, yeah. And that that is in the cards. They're looking at that at some of the some of the applications because they'll be able to uh cycle more of that power. And you know, then once they get it down to to nothing, they'll just put it back underground again. So part of the exercise in in the in the waste business now is not only do you you have to dispose of it safely, but in some cases you want to be able to dispose of it, but be able to retrieve it back because it might be a subsequent use for it as well. So we're thinking ahead in the industry of what to do.

Cost Reality And Long-Term Thinking

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Okay. So it's um it's it's safe, it's manageable, uh it's deployable, um it's uh I guess desirable for national aims, if you think about security and industrial development. Is it affordable?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Aaron Powell If you look at the cost, Ontario Power Generation has done a cost analysis of this. And over the lifetime of uh of their reactors, so their 90-year reactor, let's say, if you if you consider the cost of the fuel, uh the cost of maintenance, the people to run the reactor, all that sort of stuff, and you add that all up for the power that's generated, it looks like it it uh it's generating power at 10 cents a kilowatt. The SMRs that you're proposing to put in there, when they do the same sort of life cycle cost analysis, they're looking about 14 cents a kilowatt. So for over the long haul, it's very it can be very affordable. Nuclear generating nuclear power is not is is a long game, right? You're not in there to make money over a short period of time. You're anyone that's in it, they're in it for the long for the long haul. So that's how you can get the cost down significantly by taking a look at the what the big picture is, not what the immediate picture is. We're thinking generations and generations uh beyond our lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Those price figures you mentioned, those aren't out of line with what people pay if they're in Vancouver or Saskatoon or Toronto, uh, pretty much in that range, maybe a little at the high end, depending on where you are. Maybe where you are. Certainly not uh as high as some places in in the U.S. I think in California you hear about uh multiple of that as being just standard.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Even even looking up at the Arctic uh like they're paying almost like it's sometimes some cases a dollar, a dollar fifty a kilowatt or a kilowatt hour. So it gets expensive depending on the fuel source that you're using. But like I said, this nuclear is for the long haul. So if you're not in for the long haul, this is not the business for you for you to be in.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Maybe you need big long-haul thinkers. You need backstopping, perhaps, from uh governments, territorial governments, the federal government, or or not. Uh what's what's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Uh I I think we need visionaries in the business. We're not just looking at what's gonna happen now, but they're looking at the generations uh to come. So, like the when you talk with the indigenous people, they're not worried about what's happening now. They're worried about you know, seven generations down, what are they gonna have to look forward to? And nuclear fits into that type of uh long-term vision for for the country, for the nation.

Indigenous Benefits And Trust

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Have you had meetings with First Nations leaders, with indigenous leaders from the North?

SPEAKER_00 28:41

In the North, no. Uh I personally don't have the meetings with them. I only get called in if uh if it's uh like uh the chief wants to have a discussion. Uh, but the my people have been involved in uh in a few consultations uh on nuclear, both on the nuclear waste side as well as the uh new nuclear builds as well. We've had some very powerful discussions with with them uh going forward, and they they ask some very interesting questions.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yes, and I don't know what those questions are, but in my own uh experience, where I have traveled in the north, I find that often the lived reality and what one encounters is quite different than what maybe you'd expect if you relied on some of the typical uh sources of information that you get if you don't stray out of the city too much. Um you might think, well, northern indigenous peoples would like to live traditionally in ways they lived for centuries and do so indefinitely into the future, not always uh true, I've found. I uh also the attitude towards industrial development can be quite surprising because I I uh I hear over and over from those in leadership positions in Indigenous Canada that being able to keep families together to give motivation to the young to go and get educated and get a job and be part of building some kind of life for themselves that requires, you know, doing things and having energy for that. Uh you know, I often discover that my expectations are um completely turned upside down but by what I encounter. And I think with nuclear, that maybe is one of those things.

Protecting Canada’s Nuclear Advantage

SPEAKER_00 30:23

What's interesting is my people have told me that when they've gone into uh to engage with the communities, you know, surprisingly, they don't ask, you know, is it safe? That's not what they're what they're asking for. They're looking, they're asking the first question that comes out is why here? And what are the benefits to my community from having this project, whether it's nuclear or or or gas or what have you, what's the benefit to my people here now and in the future? Which finds out you know, some which is quite interesting. Like they, you know, if you can if they trust, they they seem to trust you that the technology is safe, you wouldn't be doing it here. But why here? Why did you choose this this this particular place? And that's a fascinating discussion to have with them and understanding what uh you know where they're coming from and what their needs are.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

So nuclear is one of those areas where Canada has really been a quiet success story. And that leads me to ask, what does Canada need to do to say over the next five years, next 10 years, to not squander its nuclear advantage? Because even though we're really great at some things, um it has to be said that we sometimes um are a little fast and loose with with uh not appreciating the potential we do have in some other areas. Yeah. So how do we keep this one uh likely to land?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

That's a super question. You know, I I think practically gotta deliver on Darlington. We gotta get that up and working, and we gotta demonstrate that we can build it on time and on budget, and it's a and it's going to be a success story. I think that that is number one. We have to demonstrate to the world and to ourselves that we can do it. Next thing is by is by growing our uh our supply chain in Canada. What we've seen is that the supply chain uh is dwindling. We need to reinforce it. We need to have more kids coming into the business uh to uh to work in the industry. Uh we're sort of cracking jokes that you know the supply chain is decaying at a faster rate than uh the nuclear reactors, you know, which is sort of scary because a lot of our brain trust is is leaving the industry. Like you know, some of our youngest people now or sort of guys have like us who have gray hair. So that we need to get more people into the business and and get them motivated and excited about uh about being involved in nuclear. So, hey, you know, let's get Darlington working, let's uh get the communities involved and and let's build our um our supply chain that it's gonna be sustainable in into the future. So if we can do that in the next five years, we're on our way to uh to energy sustainability and to sovereignty.

Careers Training And Where To Learn

SPEAKER_01 33:03

That is a great insight. Uh I'd like to just go back and dig into something because I always like to uh learn about career paths, because I know there are people who come to power struggle because themselves, or maybe there's someone in the family who's planning a career. And I know in the Canadian natural resource space generally, there's such great livelihoods because you're connected to growing the economy. You're directly connected in your job to doing things that have that direct value. And I think often that's part of having a well-paying and secure job. Um But in the case of nuclear, uh you're concerned that there's it's not the what the it's not the hottest career option. Is that the issue? Is it a sort of a perception thing? Is it uh a shortage of people with the skills or what what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Well, what what what happened, remember when we were talking about that, you know, um nuclear wasn't vogue for for a while, right? People were, you know, there weren't people getting into the industry because they didn't see much happening yet, because they just, you know, it wasn't vogue. People were turning away from that. There's Germany, they turned the whole country turned away from from nuclear. And what we're starting to see now is there's a pickup, there's a big interest in nuclear because it's green, because it's sustainable, uh, because you you need to have uh, you know, educated, smart, skilled people in the industry to to make it work. Because we're getting involved in AI and all that sort of stuff too. So we're now seeing it like the you know, nuclear is both people want to get into it, but there aren't enough people because there's been a gap in that business. This one, you know, and I would say, what did you say, 30 years ago, 40 years ago? You know, nuclear, you know, we had the reactors going, Darlington was going, Bruce was going, but then it got it stalled. And now people left the industry. And it's thinking it would take us time to rebuild that education, to rebuild that skill set uh to be able to do that work now and in the future. So we need to get more people involved in in the business going forward.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Well, I can see uh lineup forming at the uh what what's the preeminent place to get that kind of education if you want to go to the engineering side of nuclear?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Right now, uh the what is it, the Ontario Technology University in uh in towards Peterborough and that that area, that's where we're turning out a lot of great students, engineer with practical experience. Obviously, the other one is McMaster University as well. They're they're putting out uh, they have a great nuclear program there. And if I remember correctly, I believe University of Saskatchewan is also generating people. So on the Canadian, you know, on the Canadian side of things, you know, those are three preemptive uh universities uh that you can get involved in and get a great education. And there's still more training. Like, you know, if you have an interest in training and you and you're uh and you have a skills tradesman, you know, there's companies who are looking for you that can put you through a nuclear safety training program to make you nuclear ready as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

What's a good way to learn more?

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Get involved. You know, a couple of great places to websites to or associations to check out would be the uh, for example, uh the organization of um of nuclear industries. I'll send you, I will send you a couple of um uh websites for your three audience to check out as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Uh we'll share those.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah, and as well as a Canadian nuclear association. But they they are out there. I'll send it to you and you can share with the audience to have a look there and get get involved in in nuclear.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Dr. Anthony Ciccone, your senior vice president of the global nuclear sector at WSP. Thank you for a genuinely illuminating conversation today.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Well, thank you for your time and much appreciated. Look forward to uh continuing the conversation with you.

Share Subscribe And Final Takeaway

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yes, there's just so much to do in delivering energy that the people need. And also I think it's a reminder that Canada's energy story isn't just about the cities, about the south. It's about every community that isn't hooked up to the grid. Um and uh thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

My pleasure. Just remember nuclear is cool.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Nuclear is cool. Okay, folks, if this episode gave you a new perspective on what it takes to power the remote north, share it with someone you know, someone who cares about energy, about policy, about Canada's future. Also, please subscribe to Power Struggle on Spotify, Apple Podcasts on YouTube. We're both an audio and a video podcast. So wherever you get podcasts, you can get Power Struggle. Thanks for listening. Stay curious, stay engaged, and we'll see you next time on Power Struggle.