Power Struggle
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Power Struggle
Rebuilding Communities Through Indigenous Investment // Chana Martineau
Shanna Martineau, CEO of Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation (AIOC), shares how loan guarantees are helping Indigenous communities invest in major projects and build economic prosperity. Since 2019, AIOC has facilitated investments totaling over $700 million for 43 Indigenous communities across Alberta and beyond, with the Alberta government recently increasing their loan guarantee capacity to $3 billion.
• AIOC helps overcome Indian Act restrictions that prevent Indigenous communities from holding collateral for loans
• The organization has supported investments in energy, agriculture, transportation, tourism and technology sectors
• Communities are using investment returns to address critical infrastructure needs, like the Whitefish/Goodfish Lake First Nation rebuilding its arena after 30 years
• AIOC requires a minimum $20 million investment size and maintains rigorous standards, resulting in zero defaults to date
• Indigenous participation improves project outcomes by incorporating traditional knowledge and creating shared benefits
• The model has inspired similar programs in other provinces and internationally
• Investment returns flow back to communities, generating over $25 million annually for community priorities
• Economic reconciliation means both catching up and positioning Indigenous communities for future growth opportunities
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The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.
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Their arena burnt down 30 years ago. So I want you to think about living in a rural centre. You have nowhere to participate in athletics, you have nowhere to learn about teams, you have nowhere to learn about leadership, your school is underfunded and the nearest arena is an hour away One way. So if you are a single mother I have been a single mother of two girls over my professional career how do you take your child to hockey, ringette, any of the winter sports that Canadians are passionate about? And then what does that look like as you're a teenager with no productive outlet for your energies?
Stewart Muir:If you're enjoying Power Struggle, make sure to subscribe, like and share this episode. It helps us bring fact-based energy conversations to more people across Canada and beyond. Welcome to Power Struggle. I'm Stuart Muir. Today we're talking with Shanna Martineau. Shanna is the CEO of the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, or AIOC. Aioc helps Indigenous communities in Alberta and beyond invest in important areas like natural resources, agriculture, transportation, tourism and technology, and since Shanna came on board as CEO, they've helped 43 Indigenous communities take part in projects worth over $700 million. And because of this success, the Alberta government, which backed AIOC, has increased their loan guarantee capacity to $3 billion so that even more communities can get involved in bigger projects.
Stewart Muir:Shanna has worked in banking and finance for over 30 years. She has, throughout her career, supported diversity and worked to open doors for women and Indigenous people in leadership roles, and she herself is a proud member of the Frog Lake First Nation in Alberta. She studied economics at the University of Alberta and was elected recently to the board of Synovus Energy, one of our top Canadian energy companies. Shanna's work is changing how Indigenous people participate in Canada's industries, including the energy industry. If you want to understand how power is shifting in Canada's energy world, you need to know about Shanna Martineau, and here she is. You're going to learn about her, shanna. Welcome to the show. Thank you, you're going to learn about her, shanna. Welcome to the show.
Chana Martineau:Thank you so much for having me, Stuart. It's a pleasure to be here.
Stewart Muir:It certainly is great to see your face and, you know, I'm wondering if there was one specific experience or realization that made you believe that Indigenous communities could fundamentally alter the balance of power in Canada's energy sector.
Chana Martineau:You know, stuart, that's such an interesting question for me and, for me, indigenous communities have always been heavily involved in the energy industry. I grew up in an oil patch household, we would say, in Alberta, so my family's been involved in the energy industry for decades, and so when the AIOC was created and it was announced in 2019 by Jason Kenney's government who was a former member of your podcast, I believe in 2019, I thought yes, this is it. This is the impetus and the enhancer that Indigenous communities really need to fully participate in our economy. I was so excited about the organization that I just couldn't let it go, and so I ended up joining the board in 2020, and I ended up being CEO not too long after that.
Stewart Muir:And you've since then been instrumental in advancing the loan guarantee. I mentioned the increase. Initially, I think it was a billion dollars, but now it's triple that. How did that happen?
Chana Martineau:That's a really interesting question.
Chana Martineau:You know the governor of Alberta said to us deploy a billion dollars in loan guarantees and I should explain at some point what a loan guarantee is exactly, because it's not a common concept and don't lose a nickel.
Chana Martineau:So really have a strong focus on quality, supporting really strong, economically viable partnerships to protect the loan guarantee and the government of Alberta balance sheet, and yet deploy a billion dollars. That's a big number, and what we've seen is that there is so much demand from both the Indigenous community side to invest, particularly in energy projects, but others and also from industry, so big companies that you've seen Indigenous groups partner with. You know Enbridge is an example that sticks out. There are many others that really come together to make a business better through Indigenous partnership, and so the government of Alberta saw the opportunity. They saw the economic development opportunities not only for Indigenous community but for the province as a whole, and so they increased that limit to $3 billion to enable that transaction. One of the most important things for capital markets is certainty of access, and we were starting to look like we were going to run out of capital and so no one wants to embark down a path if that loan guarantee capacity is not available, so that's why the increase to $3 billion.
Stewart Muir:I'd just like to provide a little more context in this, especially for those who aren't aware why this is needed so much to have AIOC, and what a welcome moment in 2019 it was when we heard this was coming. What are the challenges that would be present, in your opinion, that something like AIOC would be so necessary and then would become successful the way it is?
Chana Martineau:So restrictions in the Indian Act so many people don't know. The Indian Act is still in effect today and it is wide ranging and all encompassing. So First Nations cannot hold collateral the same way that non First Nations people can. So, due to restrictions in the Indian Act, so I, if I live on reserve, cannot fold collateral for a home, a vehicle, in the same way that you can living off reserve, and so that has held back Indigenous communities from participation in the economy because they can't invest. How do you normally invest, build a business, build your own personal net worth through a home, other types of investments you borrow. Indigenous people are held back from that ability.
Stewart Muir:Now, shanna, I'm not Indigenous. I do own a home. If I don't pay my mortgage or somehow fall into arrears with the city that wants my taxes, I know what will happen to me. There are those consequences. How is it different if you're an individual or a community that is governed by the Indian Act you mentioned in terms of property? Can an Indian Act person I'm not going to say Indian person, we don't use that term First Nations person? How is it different?
Chana Martineau:You legally can't hold collateral. So if I have a home on reserve, I do not own the land attached to it. I cannot. When reserves were set up, you cannot. It's illegal to hold that land. You cannot hold title to that land. You can never own a home.
Chana Martineau:Now there are varying ways, mechanisms that the Canadian government has tried to work around that and provide opportunity, and so AIOC is one of those large-scale opportunities to try to work around the restrictions in the Indiana Act. So it's an interesting place to be. We're catching up after more than a century of being held back, you know. So this is a way to accelerate participation in the economy. I think the interesting part of this, though, not only does it accelerate the Indigenous community participation, both Métis First Nations and Inuit, it also helps accelerate the business and investment and the capital cycle.
Chana Martineau:So I like to talk about us supporting the natural cycle of capital, not interrupting it. So a loan guarantee is we act as the collateral. So where your home is the collateral in your personal mortgage and the things we invest in are just they think of them like giant mortgages a power plant instead of a home, a pipeline infrastructure system instead of a home. But it works very much in the same way. The Alberta government balance sheet then acts as the collateral for that loan, because First Nations people and Indigenous people can't hold collateral in the same way.
Stewart Muir:I feel as if there's something deeper and almost societal in the change that AIOC represents, and so I want to dig a little deeper. I mean, if I don't make my mortgage payments, the bank knows what it can do. It can come and take my house away, and whatever equity I may possess in that house will be in terms of the contract I have with the bank. It'll be theirs to get that money back and get me out of the house. But if that happens with someone who lives under the Indian Act and lives maybe on a reservation, which would be an Indian reservation under the terminology of the Act, correct? Yeah, that person well, they wouldn't be able to get that mortgage in the first place because the property, would you say it's communally held or it's held in some other form.
Chana Martineau:It's crown land.
Stewart Muir:It's federally owned. It's owned by.
Chana Martineau:The government.
Stewart Muir:Yes right.
Chana Martineau:So it would be like you trying to take a mortgage on something that you rented. It's similar.
Stewart Muir:So the bank is going to say well, I'm sorry, I'd love to help you, but you can't secure. You don't have anything to secure.
Chana Martineau:And then the other part is your income stream. So I'm going to take that a little bit further. But your income stream, First Nations, the funding that they get from the federal government under the current construct. They get a certain pool for housing, they get a certain pool for education, and I'm not sure if this is the absolute current stat, but as an example, a First Nations school gets something like one third of the funding per student that an officer of school gets, things like that. The band has no ability to reallocate those resources. They get money for housing and they get money for education. So you cannot even take those funds and redeploy them to business opportunities if you want to, because their funding is tied to specific projects.
Stewart Muir:The band being the Indian band, which is elected by local members of the First Nation on that reserve in that community. But I just want to go a little deeper even. I mean, we have the Indian Act, it's 2025. It's essentially a paternalistic way of protecting. Quote unquote, I suppose air quotes on protecting.
Chana Martineau:First.
Stewart Muir:Nations from something, and it's in law. It's very hard to change a federal law, especially one as fundamental as this. But it's almost as if in the financial terminology there is a form. I'm going to be provocative, I'm going to say a financial apartheid in Canada, where people are sort of kept apart from everyone else for their own good, supposedly. Am I being a little too rash in characterizing it this way?
Chana Martineau:I try to stay out of the political realm so I try to. You know, I'm in a role where I'm acting as a bridge, trying to bridge the gap right.
Chana Martineau:So AIOC has been designed to help bridge the gap without having the lengthy negotiations that would be involved in renegotiating the Indian Act. And the Alberta government has taken renegotiating the Indian Act, and the Alberta government has taken this as a proactive way in our own jurisdiction, things that the Alberta government can control. We have then inspired I'll call it other governments to follow suit. So the federal program is being launched in response not only to our program but to others. What we're seeing as a nation, I think, is how the collective involvement of Indigenous people in our economy is. But to others, what we're seeing as a nation, I think, is how the collective involvement of Indigenous people in our economy is actually an accelerator.
Chana Martineau:So when we look at something like the Trans Mountain Pipeline, you know I spoke to Ian Anderson, the CEO at the time, about what it might have looked like if we had started with Indigenous partnership on that expansion from the beginning, and so when you're sharing in the benefits and the risks not just the risk side what do those conversations look like? So I'm going to give you an example. Stuart, wherever you might live, I don't know where that is, but if someone wanted to build a pipeline through your backyard. How do you feel about that? Sorry, stuart, we're going to dig up your backyard and put a pipeline through it.
Stewart Muir:You're just going to do it. You're not asking me for permission, you're just announcing. You're doing it, okay.
Chana Martineau:Right. How is that conversation different if you're going to have a share in the profits of that pipeline as well as the risk? I can see you smiling.
Stewart Muir:Suddenly. It just is different, isn't it? Yeah, wait a minute, yeah.
Chana Martineau:There's a benefit Okay, let's talk about that a little bit more right. And so maybe you come to the table with collaborative solutions and I think the energy transition is enhanced by having Indigenous people at the table. We naturally think in terms of seven generations and long-term investments. And so if you start with that Indigenous partnership, not only do you start with that more positive footprint even just your own reaction right in that moment shows me you're just starting from a more positive place but you're also then getting the wisdom and the benefit of Indigenous history and culture and view of the land. You can head off potential errors or mistakes because of traditional knowledge from time immemorial as you build those projects together. So how much more productivity could we have, how much quicker could we be to market, how much stronger and more economically viable can we be with Indigenous people together at the table with business?
Stewart Muir:When this idea came out, it was the first anywhere that I'm aware of.
Chana Martineau:Ontario had a smaller version of it and only focused on electrical distribution. So I want to give credit that there was, but it was not quite the same the programs. The beauty of this, the leadership here, has been the programs are emerging to come together. Ontario has morphed their program to be more like ours, be more expansive, more inclusive, a higher threshold of improvements. Saskatchewan has launched a program, bc has announced a program, the federal program is in launch and just announced their first deal not long ago. So you know we've had reach outs from Latin America, from Japan, from Australia. There are many countries around the world that suffer the legacy colonial issues that we do in Canada. We are not alone and everyone is looking at us.
Stewart Muir:They are looking at Alberta as a leader, but there are other governments across our country that are taking up the mantle and we're being seen as a leader globally with respect to Indigenous participation in the bureaucracy, federally, who are really well intentioned and equipped and going in the right direction doing these things, but they're kind of shackled by this piece of legislation from the colonial era and so a lot of the progress being made is by those individuals kind of working through it. And you know, I'm sort of hearing that you're saying, okay, you're bringing this banking lens, you've got all this training, you've got, I'm sure, colleagues and board members and advisors who who share that with you, so you're bringing this very practical lens to working around this fundamental problem that may or may not go away in future. So you're just saying let's get on with it.
Chana Martineau:Basically, Right, right, absolutely.
Chana Martineau:And you know, stuart, for me this journey has been such an interesting one because I thought the different parts of myself earlier in my career felt disparate, you know.
Chana Martineau:So I'm a horse gal, you know I'm a mom, I'm an indigenous person, I'm a finance professional, and early in my career all of those things seemed separate. But in this role, doing this work, it feels like the picture has all filled in and all the different parts of myself that didn't seem congruent earlier in my career now have come together to make sense. So I feel like I'm just as comfortable in jeans and boots on the reserve or on the back of a horse as I am in a boardroom in downtown Bay Street. And I'm so honored and privileged to be able to act as a bridge and help to bring these worlds together, to help find a productive way through. It takes everyone's great minds at the table, but if I can help, through AIOC and our team, to bring these worlds together to find a great solution and help other jurisdictions across the country do the same, the future is so bright to me.
Stewart Muir:I think you've got a line on gratitude what makes you grateful?
Chana Martineau:Wow. Well, you know what I've gone through a lot of hardships in my life right and a lot of really tough times. And I'll start with what my parents went through as teen parents in small town Alberta. You know, I think, about a First Nations father and a non-Indigenous mother with a baby in small town Alberta. My mom was 17 and in grade 12, what she went through.
Chana Martineau:I think I'm fortunate that it wasn't reversed. Maybe if I was born to a single mother on reserve, I might have been taken away from that mother Right, but it wasn't so really good fortune that they didn't give me up for adoption and that they stuck it out as young, very young parents with very young children with nothing, worked really hard every day of their lives to provide me with the opportunity to go to university. My grandfather was one of 13 and my dad is one of seven, second youngest of seven, and I was the first person to graduate from university from all of that group, and so I never forgot the opportunities that I had and where I came from and always wanted to give back to Indigenous people and somehow marry my finance career with that. So it wasn't until I came into this role that I really felt the power of being able to do that.
Stewart Muir:That's quite a story. Thanks for sharing that, Shanna.
Chana Martineau:Thank you.
Stewart Muir:The meaning of this work I'd like to understand, because you're not just giving out money. Let's put that to rest, I think there are some prejudices I run across in this country that oh.
Chana Martineau:First.
Stewart Muir:Nations, they just get Ottawa giving them money, which I think, if there's any truth to that, I don't think it's been an effective approach. I'm not even sure it's true, though. What's the situation?
Chana Martineau:So I'll tell you about our work and then I'll say absolutely, the federal government just doesn't give out money, and if you really understood the journey of First Nations people and Indigenous people in our country, I think that myth would be again. We go back to the banks, lend money for the investment, just like they would in any other circumstances. We just replace the collateral. So what we do with that, it makes a more attractive interest rate. So the economic reconciliation part is a greater return on that investment to Indigenous people. That investment is then used to invest in other things, so future businesses, community centers I think we've all heard about the infrastructure gap, both in our nation, but especially on reserve and in the Indigenous communities, and so these are funds that are being used to reinvest the proceeds back into communities, and so we believe that north of $25 million a year will flow into communities in Alberta and north of $1.3 billion will flow in over the lifetime of the loan guarantees we provided to date into community. And what does that mean in terms of schools, housing, water? And one of my very favorite stories is the Whitefish Goodfish Lake First Nation in northeastern Alberta. Their arena burnt down 30 years ago. So I want you to think about and I'm a sports person, I want you to think about living in a rural center. You have nowhere to participate in athletics, you have nowhere to learn about teams, you have nowhere to learn about leadership. Your school's underfunded, it's hard to get there and the nearest arena is an hour away One way. So if you are a single mother I have been a single mother of two girls over my course of my professional career If you're a single mother, how do you take your child to hockey ring at any of the winter sports that Canadians are passionate about? And so then they lose those skills and they lose that productivity. And then what does that look like? As you're a teenager with, you know, sort of no productive outlet for your energies? That community talks about a lost generation, and then that lost generation impacts not only the First Nation itself, but all the surrounding communities, all the towns around them. When you have productive, happy, healthy citizens contributing, you're accelerating the economy, contributing in a healthy way. The same is true when you're unhealthy and you're contributing in an unhealthy way. And so not only so.
Chana Martineau:I was so proud that Whitefish Good Fish Lake First Nation has taken their proceeds, arranged financing through First Nations Bank and built a community, a center, an omniplex that will have an arena. It'll be a place for them to gather, it will be a healthy heart for their community and they talk about the excitement and a centre, a healthy place for their people. A Métis settlement, elizabeth Métis. They bought a van with one of the proceeds of some of their investments to transport their elders to community events so the young people have connections to the elders and can stay in touch with the culture. Think about now these youth growing up in a healthy environment and you think about the opioid crisis and the disproportionate impact on Indigenous peoples and fast forward that and make those communities far more healthy. And how do the individuals coming out of that community contribute to our society at large? So it's better for the Indigenous communities, but it's better for all Albertans and all Canadians.
Stewart Muir:And I'm going to guess that there wasn't anyone just waiting to go and build that arena for the whitefish. Good fish community, good fish Lake First.
Chana Martineau:Nation, no, no, and that one brings a tear to my eye every time. But there's so many others. So you know the work is, as you can tell, deeply meaningful for me. But I'm also remember, I'm an economist at heart and so I'm also really proud of Alberta and Canadians for seeing the opportunity in this and seeing how it benefits all of us.
Stewart Muir:That's an incredible story and I think, to understand it more from end to end, let's talk about how a deal happens. So there's a First Nation that qualifies what makes a community qualified to be able to apply and what constitutes a proposal that you would then say, yeah, we'll provide the collateral for you to do that, and then off you go. Maybe it's an example or maybe just in general, you could describe how that works.
Chana Martineau:Absolutely, and we have investment opportunities come to us from both the business side and the community side. So it's really interesting to see how this comes together. But there's a lot of businesses and you'll see them. You know in partnerships that we've had Tamarack Valley, enbridge, strathcona Resources and others that want to partner with their Indigenous neighbors. They've been looking for opportunities to do this for a long time and so often one side or the other will come to our team and say we've got this opportunity in front of us, and so this might get a little technical on the finance side.
Chana Martineau:But then we assess that opportunity, just like if we go back to your mortgage example. You go into the bank with your financial statements or your income verification and your home and the bank validates the value of the home. They validate your income, they make sure you can make the mortgage payments. We basically do that on a macro scale. So will the Cascade Power Plant? Can it generate enough income to pay back the debt? And then, can it also then generate returns to the community? For the reconciliation part, can that debt also be supported with net payments to the community?
Stewart Muir:Just like a banker would.
Chana Martineau:Just like a banker would Exactly the same, and the banker still provides the debt, remember.
Chana Martineau:So then when we all come together, then they apply to a bank or a bond issuer the same way that you apply to the bank for a mortgage. And then the bank ATB has financed in Alberta several of our transactions, but so has CIVC and others says yes, we will provide that financing. Alberta will then provide the guarantee for the Indigenous community. It's typically a consortium, a group of communities together, often both Métis and First Nation, and so it's really just adding a third party at the table between the Indigenous communities, the company that they're working with to make that investment with, and then the bank, and then we will support the entire ecosystem. Through negotiations. We work to make sure that the Alberta taxpayer is protected against default, so we will add special provisions in to cover you know what happens if the income fluctuates, In the same way that the bank wants to know that your mortgage is covered if you have a disability and you can't work. They want insurance. We'll do the similar kinds of things.
Stewart Muir:So you've got a $3 billion fund, but that's not money where the government said go and spend this money. They've said go and invest this money and grow this pool, right.
Chana Martineau:Right and then it's still lent. So the actual the government. None of the money comes out of the government of Alberta bucket unless there's a default. So it's called a contingent liability. It's like a cosigner If you cosign for someone's loan. That's what the Alberta government is doing.
Stewart Muir:Now, do you have enough of a track record in the market of doing these deals to be able to say whether there's a higher or lower average default rate from these investments?
Chana Martineau:We've had no defaults to date.
Stewart Muir:No, defaults at all, so we're over five years in exist. Done. That sounds like it's better than average.
Chana Martineau:We are very stringent in our requirements, so the bar is high. That's why we don't do hundreds of these deals. We do a handful. There may be two to three a year. They're very large, they're very impactful and we have a $20 million minimum investment size. So these are large scale infrastructure projects and the credit risk tolerance is very low and I think that is what is really changing hearts and minds.
Chana Martineau:So other governments have kind of watched us carefully to see what we do. We've shared our knowledge willingly because we want the ecosystem to thrive, we want Canada to thrive. We're not proprietary about how we approach this, but we do talk about it's not easy to do a transaction with us. The bar for the investment quality is very, very high. The cash flow profile is very high, and so they're not easy. We don't do one every week, there's a handful of a year. There is a minimum investment size of $20 million. The goal is to generate meaningful returns net of loan payments. So they're not easy to do. But we have found partners that have come with us alongside the communities to invest in great assets and so we found great transactions and so far we have had no defaults to date and no provisions for credit loss for the finance gurus or the accountants in the crowd. We haven't had a provision for credit loss either.
Stewart Muir:I've got to say I'm no finance specialist, but I think congratulations are due to this. It's mostly happened under your leadership. You've been in the seat for, I think, a majority of the time the organization has existed. So I think you get the points for this, shanna.
Chana Martineau:Thank you. Way to go, thank you. I'm proud of what we've been able to achieve, but I have a great team.
Stewart Muir:It takes a lot of dedication by a lot of people to make this happen. I do want to dig a little deeper, but also to just expand the understanding of this mission. Can you back an investment in any sector of the economy?
Chana Martineau:We've got the mandated sectors and they're all with related infrastructure. So remember that we are designed to support large-scale infrastructure projects. Our typical investment size is somewhere between $20 million and $250 million of investment, and that is typically sort of $100 million. $250 million would be our average deal size. We have some on either end, you know, and we've supported some very large investments. The Athabasca Indigenous Investments in the Seven Pipelines with Enbridge was $1.12 billion in total, with a $250 million loan guarantee and an $860 million bond. So we can do some very large-scale investments as well.
Stewart Muir:So this means that a First Nation business entity maybe it's a First Nation band, I guess or a development corporation they can attach themselves financially to assets that pension funds would categorize as the safest, the safest houses kind of investment. I mean, these aren't risky assets, are they?
Chana Martineau:No, not risky at all. We have a very low risk tolerance. We have a very low risk tolerance. So I would say the very safest assets. When we talk about large scale infrastructure, you think power plants, pipelines, the things that our economy need to operate.
Stewart Muir:So that could be. Think about those kinds of things. You've mentioned pipelines. You could do a wind farm.
Chana Martineau:Solar farm.
Stewart Muir:Solar farm you do solar farms.
Chana Martineau:Deptis Solar has just been announced recently. Cold Lake First Nation is the First Nation band behind that. In that partnership with Elemental, In that partnership we collaborated with Canada Infrastructure Bank to bring that financing to life. So sometimes there's more than one financial institution at the table and so we were proud to partner with Canada Infrastructure Bank to bring the Dapchis Hiller farm to life.
Stewart Muir:Now you're one organization. You were created by a provincial government, so someone might say you're kind of an extension of government. You're doing the bidding of them to some extent. You have a board that probably reports to the finance minister, the minister of Indigenous Relations, right.
Stewart Muir:Okay, so you're kind of an extension of government and you've got this responsibility, but you're dealing with other companies increasingly that are more controlled by different shareholders. You know, if the government is your shareholder, the First Nations Bank of Canada, cedar Leaf are indigenous-led finance institutions right that are getting involved. Can you explain that part, because this is new to me? I've been following your story. I mean, you came to our stage in Vancouver at the Indigenous Partnership Success Showcase a few years ago and you know you started telling your story on the West Coast then and people were just leaning in. But you've got this is news you've got these other institutions, what's going on there? But you've got this is news. You've got these other institutions, what's going on there?
Chana Martineau:Well, the whole Indigenous financial ecosystem is coming to life, and so First Nations Bank has been in existence for a long time but now, led by Bill Lomax, cedar Leaf is coming, longhouse Capital is another one, fnfa is expanding.
Chana Martineau:So what I think is happening there is a momentum shift in this country, and you know there's a few things that happened, but the residential school discoveries in Canada really shone a light on why things are the way they are, especially for Indigenous peoples, and how we got to this.
Chana Martineau:In a way it captured people's attention, the broader Canadian attention, in a way that we hadn't before, and I think also, at the same time, there's been a collective will to be able to do something different.
Chana Martineau:And so I think that coming into being the CEO of this organization on the heels of that or through that period and beyond, and helping us emerge out of that as a better, stronger nation, the Indigenous financial ecosystem, the importance of it, the opportunity in it, it has been seen as an opportunity for growth in our country in a way that it wasn't seen before, and so, if that's maybe one of the few benefits of the pandemic, I think that is one that helped us all to stop, see, reflect on what we view and why and how Indigenous people participate in our economy and have people look for a different and better way going forward. But I just think that was an inflection point for our country. The residential school experience had been in existence for forever, but I just think it wasn't broadly appreciated how terrible it was it led to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
Stewart Muir:did it not?
Chana Martineau:Yes, it did, and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission recommendations was one of the key drivers to the creation of this organization those two pieces, the Truth and Reconciliation recommendations. Also just the broader experience by Canadians to say wait a minute, this is not okay, we need to do something different. And then also Indigenous people coming up and saying having pride, the leverage institutions like ours to support, and saying yes, we can and being more bold about it. It's really exciting times right now and I hate to say the pandemic was the sole cause of it. It wasn't, but I think it was a point of reflection for most of the country.
Stewart Muir:You know I will never forget that during the pandemic we had Senator Murray Sinclair speak to us. It was virtual, we were confined in our homes, but we did the Indigenous Partnership Success Showcase anyway that year. It was virtual, we were confined in our homes, but we did the Indigenous Partnership Success Showcase anyway that year. We had to. And you know he passed away last year. So we all think often, I think, of his legacy, those of us who are invested in this, and he spoke very deeply. It was actually the day that the Kamloops grave discovery was announced by the First Nation. It was the biggest story in the country and there we were and everyone wanted his help to understand. It's the forgiveness that I took away from that. I mean, boy, there might be some indigenous peoples who don't have forgiveness yet, but the amount of forgiveness among the indigenous peoples of Canada is incredible, and this is being expressed through the investments that are happening, because they're a way to constructively build something that is shared with everybody. I mean, I just find that incredible.
Chana Martineau:A deep part of Indigenous culture is gratitude Gratitude for every day, no matter how hard it is, but gratitude that we thank the creator every day for the gift of the day. And so that is just such a deep part of Indigenous culture that it's hard to explain, and I think you know anyone in their journey. You can either focus on the hurt or you can focus on the lessons, and there are those that do both, and often every one of us focuses on the hurt before we focus on the lessons and trying to make it better, and so, myself included, we all have to grow and take the opportunity, and we're all at different stages in our own existence when we make that choice, and so Senator Sinclair's book is incredibly moving. I encourage all of your listeners to read it. I spent some time with it this spring and it just was deeply meaningful for me, and I always just try to focus on what can we do.
Chana Martineau:There's lots of people out there on all sides that say you know you can't solve all the problems, or there's still so many problems, and I just say, well, this is my small part, this is how I can most help. What I can do is help put economic opportunity and help bring Indigenous peoples into those economic opportunities, so that the leaders of those communities have more revenue and more resources to help address all of the pressing issues of their community and however they prioritize as the elected leaders of their band or of their settlement or of their Métis nation. However they prioritize those priorities, we're just helping them to achieve their goals sooner and I really fundamentally believe we'll be better off as a country for it.
Stewart Muir:Shanna, have you ever run across anyone? I'll bet you travel around and I really fundamentally believe we'll be better off as a country for it. Stay on my land and hunt for the things that my ancestors ate and not engage in the economy. Thank you very much, so I don't support what you're doing. Have you ever heard something like that said?
Chana Martineau:Yeah, absolutely 100%. But mostly Indigenous people want the same opportunities as all other Canadians. They want the opportunity for education. They want a healthy, meaningful life. They want good, healthy food and access to clean water. Yes, they want traditional lifestyle as well, very deeply concerned about the environment and the land and nature. They're not mutually exclusive and I think being at the table is an opportunity to help us develop our economy in a very responsible way. But, yes, I have been doubted and there are communities that just opt not to participate in our deals and that is okay. Okay, I wholeheartedly support those goals as well.
Chana Martineau:I see AIOC and our team as the bringer together of opportunities and those that want to participate, and we did have one community in one of our transactions. They opted not to participate in the Tamarack deal. That we did and it was very interesting to me. I was sad because it was a large community. They were in a state of emergency. There's lots of need, as there are in every community, but I just you know I was brokenhearted that they chose not to participate. But we went ahead with the 12 communities we had involved and what was interesting is it wasn't the leaders that changed their mind, it was the community members came back to leadership and said why did you pass up on this economic opportunity? We want this economic opportunity and we want you to go back and find a way for us to participate. And so that's a really unusual situation. We wouldn't normally allow that, but because of the extenuating circumstances, including the state of the emergency on the reserve, at the decision-making time we worked with the other 12 members of the Wapis-Chanis partnership.
Chana Martineau:They unanimously voted to bring Big Stone back into the deal. The corporate partner Big Stone was an important part of their operations. That's where most of their Indigenous staff members come from. That's the community that's physically closest to their assets. It was just an important part of the partnership. So they agreed. And then the two financial partners providing the debt. We needed to explain to them the rationale about why this was important for all of the parties involved. But they agreed to revisit the deal and open it up, make it a little bigger. So every community got a bigger investment and a bigger return. Big Stone got back in their community, was happy with the decision, and it's something that, when I look back at my time here that I will be most proud of that we were able to make this happen.
Stewart Muir:What a story. You mentioned Tamarack, that's an energy company based in Alberta. Is that?
Chana Martineau:correct. Tamarack Valley Energy. Yes.
Stewart Muir:And what do they do?
Chana Martineau:They're an E&P company, so they natural gas, they're in the Monteney, they have gas assets and they're led by a CEO that is an honorary chief of the Blood Tribe. They really strongly believe in Indigenous inclusions. It's been a pleasure to work with them and is their project.
Stewart Muir:That is what we're talking about here, located on the traditional territories of the First Nations that have invested, or can it be anywhere?
Chana Martineau:Yes, this is located on their territories, on the Indigenous communities. So you first want to partner with the nations that are closest to your assets. So when you're thinking about your backyard, it doesn't make sense for me to the pipelines for your backyards. It doesn't make sense for me to talk to your neighbor five blocks over and not talk to you if it's going through your backyard.
Stewart Muir:Now we've been talking about Alberta. I'm in British Columbia. If, If it's going through your backyard.
Chana Martineau:Now we've been talking about Alberta.
Chana Martineau:I'm in British Columbia. If there was a First Nation in BC that loved what you're doing and called you up, what would they hear from you or your people? So there's two thresholds for AIOC investment support. So one is Alberta nations must make up 25 percent of the indigenous consortium. So something like the Trans Mountain Pipeline, as long as Alberta nations, first Nations or Métis made up 25% of the broader Indigenous Investment Consortium, then AIOC could support it. And if there is an economic net benefit to Alberta, so when we think about that, alberta is putting up its balance sheet as collateral they want to have some economic development benefit to Alberta. So when we think about that, alberta is putting up its balance sheet as collateral, they want to have some economic development benefit to Alberta. So I use the Trans Mountain example as a keen one of an opportunity that we could support if BC nations and Alberta nations came together to buy a stake in that pipeline system, because it originates in Edmonton, takes our natural resources to the coast and there's Alberta and BC Indigenous communities along the way.
Stewart Muir:Now what if it was First Nation Anywhere, say Alberta, that said, well, we don't have a wind farm potential on our property and there's no gas drilling, there's no pipeline crossing, but we think this would be a great place for a resort, for tourism. What would you say to them?
Chana Martineau:Well then we would go through the business plan, but that would be eligible under our current mandate it would be okay, yes, absolutely so.
Chana Martineau:Tourism was just included in our mandate this year or within the last 12 months, and so we should. You know we're actively looking at transactions and investment opportunities in that space. Again, with our $20 million minimum, these are not small investments. So they would be large scale projects and they've got to meet our credit criteria. So, you know, when you think about, you know, just throw out ideas, kananaskis Lodge or a ski resort like Lake Louise, you know like those are big kinds of investments that might fit the bill. I don't want to say we're working on those, that's not. That's not the case, but it's just to give you an idea of what it could be, or different opportunities. There's always new things coming to the forefront and you never know what will be the next big economic opportunity. Data centers have been a very topical conversation under the technology front, like you know. Could that be something Indigenous? Participation in the data center market or in the powering of those data centers, like those, are all ideas that we're actively exploring every day.
Stewart Muir:And there's a very clear mandate from the government of Alberta to get into data centers, because that's a growth area. Ai is incredibly energy hungry, so it kind of makes sense.
Chana Martineau:Yeah, so, and what I would say is Indigenous reconciliation to me is about catching Indigenous peoples up to where we are currently, and so the energy economy that makes a lot of sense. But also we need to position Indigenous peoples to participate in the economic growth of our country as well, or we'll always be playing catch up, and so you know, when we think about the tariff situations with the US government and then the reflection that Canadians have done about we need to do our economy better. We need to take care of ourselves and be less reliant on others, you know Indigenous peoples will be a big part of the solutions there.
Stewart Muir:That's on the tariffs front, and recently we saw a federal election. It was quite rare, I mean honestly. Can you remember a time when there was a federal election campaign where people were talking about pipelines, but just in a generally constructive oh what if we did this, what if we did that? Rather than this sort of pitched warfare about energy infrastructure? And then, at the end of the day, probably what 85% of Canadians voted for? Parties that are kind of open to possibilities. I mean, it feels like there's a different political mood on the land.
Chana Martineau:Absolutely. I think it's well-pl placed. I think we have realized our vulnerabilities from the choices that we have made. Having ourselves be highly dependent on one customer is typically not good business for any business, and so you want to have a diversity of opportunities to market your products, and so we haven't created that for ourselves and we've been deliberate about those choices, and so we're going to have to be deliberate about our choices to get out of that situation.
Stewart Muir:When Prime Minister Mark Carney talks about this line, he's got making Canada an energy superpower, and he says both renewables and conventional, and by that I think everyone understands he means oil and gas or other things we've been conventionally doing for a long time. Does that sound authentic? Does it resonate with your members, your board members, the communities that are investing?
Chana Martineau:I think Prime Minister Carney is a very practical individual. He has led two central banks. I think he is well aware, or I hope he's well aware, that we need that conventional resources, or I hope he's well aware that we need that conventional resources and to support the nation's other objectives we need the revenue from our conventional resources, and so I hope and I believe that he will follow through on that. I don't see how we find our way through the economic situation we're in without the support of our natural resource economy.
Stewart Muir:I think we're appreciating that AIOC is really diverse in what it supports. You're supporting solar and wind. You're also supporting getting natural gas to market. It so happens that Canada is about to start shipping natural gas to Asia and Japan, Korea, some of the countries and the reason businesses are doing that is because they're engaging in trade. They're exchanging a valuable commodity that the world wants for the money we need to buy iPhones and orange juice and other things that we don't make or grow in Canada.
Chana Martineau:And the world wants our energy. Canada has some of the cleanest, most responsibly produced energy in the world, and so when you think about energy security, energy affordability and energy availability, canada really leads the world in that in a way I think we've taken for granted before, and so I'm excited about the potential to ship our natural gas to Asia. It really saves our planet from more coal. And when you think about it, the Americans talk about energy security as being US security. They view energy security as critical to world peace, that when countries don't have energy security, that is when you get armed conflict, and so they view exporting LNG as not only being an environmentally friendly solution better for the planet, but they also view it as military security, and so I think Canadians need to have a bit more of a global view on some of those things. Sometimes it's not just about what we're doing here, but it's also about how we're impacting the rest of the nations on our planet.
Stewart Muir:Well, maybe what Mark Carney has been saying is a reflection that that change is actually happening. What you're saying is that Canadians should be thinking more pragmatically about these issues, and maybe they are.
Chana Martineau:I hope so. We will wait and see. I hope so, but I think, as Canadians, we have to.
Stewart Muir:Or what.
Chana Martineau:Well, our economy will continue to decline and our standard of living will decline, and we then will be subject to the same instability that some of the rest of the world is seeing. You know, I want to share a story with you, stuart, and I know it's probably something you're familiar with, and I know it's probably something you're familiar with, but a year ago in January, alberta had rolling brownouts and we had an emergency alert on our power grid. It was 40 below or colder with the wind chill in January, and we got an alert on our phone, similar to an Amber alert, and the alert asked us to turn off all unnecessary power. Unplug computers that you weren't using, turn off the lights. I myself stayed home instead of going out for dinner that night because I was worried about getting caught on the roads without streetlights, potentially if the power went out.
Chana Martineau:I thought a lot about the marginalized parts of our society, and what does very expensive access to heat mean for those people? What does having the power go out for the most marginalized parts of our society? And then I also just wondered you know, as Albertans we've taken our energy reliability for granted. It was inconceivable to me that in Alberta that we would have a power grid over. You know potential shutdown because of overage, and so you know impossible to think of. But yet here we were, and in the very coldest part of the year.
Stewart Muir:Well, if the success that AIOC has been showing for the last several years, what do you think the vision is for 10 years from now for Indigenous involvement in the power energy, but hey, the tourism sector and the renewable sector. What's your optimistic vision for that, shanna?
Chana Martineau:My optimistic vision is that Indigenous peoples are actively engaged in all aspects of our economy, that Indigenous participation is just the norm, and that our Indigenous communities in Alberta are healthy and thriving and that the entire province is stronger for it.
Stewart Muir:And on a scale of one to 10, say how far are we now in 2025 towards that vision?
Chana Martineau:That's a tough one. The optimist in me wants to say six or seven. I think we're on our way, I think we have a lot of momentum. But honestly, if I really said that I think we're probably, you know, three or four, maybe five, we're on our way, we're gaining momentum, we will get there.
Stewart Muir:And what keeps you up at night. The biggest risk or challenge to getting from this state to that 10 years away state.
Chana Martineau:You know, we have to make sure there's no failures. We can't have a major stoppage. Everyone's looking for us for leadership. And then my biggest. You know, I guess my biggest challenge and our challenge, for our team, is to help continue to inspire business leaders that this is a great source of capital for their business and that Indigenous partnerships help make their business better. We just we all need to come together to address Canada's productivity challenges, and I think this is a great way to do it. I think we're well on our way, but I'm just I worry about anything that might slow us down too much or might reverse the tide.
Stewart Muir:Well, when I was in the room when you had a gathering recently and it was all First Nations and you spoke, I forget what you said. Actually it was really loud, that's why I couldn't. But here's what I remember, though, is the excitement and the hope and the expectation. I was kind of circulating at this event talking to people, and it was just. They were so appreciative that you have created a place to come together with actual hope and track record and not more promises and broken promises and disappointments. Do you feel that people are counting on you as a person to deliver? Do you feel that?
Chana Martineau:I think we all owe it to ourselves to feel that we all have a role to play in that. I'm proud of the work that we have done here together as a team. But always remember it's no one person by themselves. And so I get up every day thinking you know, how can we advance Indigenous participation, how can we make the lives of Indigenous peoples better, whatever that looks like for them, and what's our role in that? And we can't be distracted by other things. So there's other issues for other people to solve, voice and our perspective to help government see the opportunity, the opportunity available for our country, the opportunity for the future. And so I can't help but be optimistic. It's just how I'm built and I just think we can do better.
Stewart Muir:You've really opened up about your beginnings. I wonder if you were able to go back in time and ask your mother, who was 17 years old when she had her first child I don't know if that was you or a sibling.
Chana Martineau:It was me, it was you.
Stewart Muir:Here's how I turned out. What would she have said?
Chana Martineau:What you might not know is my mom passed away really suddenly at 65.
Stewart Muir:I'm so sorry to hear that.
Chana Martineau:Yeah, no, that's okay. So I often hope that she can see where I am now and I often think she would be so proud maybe a little surprised at how far I've come and that I'm a CEO of a Crown Corporation. I know my dad is still alive.
Stewart Muir:He must be proud.
Chana Martineau:I think he is very proud and I can't believe it myself sometimes. You know, when I look from the outside in, I'm amazed that I'm a CEO of a great organization, that I'm able to share the voice of Indigenous peoples and the experience on a national stage and on a global stage. I remember always that is a great honour and a great privilege and I try to give it my best shot every day.
Stewart Muir:I think we need to continue this story in future because there's so much more and it's evolving. But, Shanna Martineau, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing so much and so deeply today on Power Struggle.
Chana Martineau:Thank you so much. It has just been an honor to be here. I've enjoyed our conversation, thank you.
