Power Struggle
Improving the energy dialogue in Canada (and beyond) through honest, non-partisan, and fact- based conversations.
The energy conversation is personal: it’s in our homes, in our hands, and now, it’s in our ears. Power Struggle invites you to listen in on honest, non-partisan, and fact-based conversations between host Stewart Muir and the leaders and thinkers designing modern energy.
Watch videos at https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
Power Struggle
Will Trump's Tariffs Break US-Canada Relations? // Joe Calnan
What happens when energy, security, and sustainability come together? Today Stewart sits down with Joe Calnan, energy security expert at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute and host of the Energy Security Cubed podcast. Together, they dive into the heart of what Power Struggle is truly all about: the energy trilemma of balancing affordability, reliability, and sustainability to build a more resilient and prosperous world.
We discuss…
- What is energy security, and why does it matter?
- The energy trilemma: Can Canada achieve net-zero goals without sacrificing economic stability or energy reliability?
- Canada’s potential to be a trusted partner in solving global energy crises, from LNG exports to supporting allies like Poland and Japan
- The broad 25% tariff the US wants to impose on Canada and how it could disrupt its economy
- Joe’s take on how geopolitical tensions, like Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, reveal weaknesses within energy systems and what Canada can do to strengthen its position
Join the conversation in the comments and subscribe for more fact based, expert-led conversations all about modern energy!
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Joe Calnan on Linkedin
Stewart Muir on Linkedin
Energy Security Cubed Podcast
Video available on Power Struggle’s YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
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The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.
The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.
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Whether or not you have intermittent rolling blackouts, whether or not you can afford to fill your car up when you go to the pump, whether or not you're able to heat your home in the winter. These are the real things that happen when you're energy insecure. If you're in a country which has unreliable or unaffordable energy, then your standard of living dramatically reduces. And these are the basics of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs Making sure that you don't die of exposure, making sure that you can actually move to the places that you need to move to get food, making sure that your food is even grown in the first place these are all aspects that are affected by the security of your energy. So long story short. Energy security affects every single thing that you do in industrialized society and has ever since the Industrial Revolution.
Stewart Muir:Essentially, Hi, I'm Stuart Muir. Today, on Power Struggle, I'm joined by Joe Kalnin, energy Security Analyst at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, and he's host of the Energy Security Cubed podcast. Joe's work bridges the gaps between energy geopolitics and policy. He's tackling questions that affect all of us, whether we realize it or not, from the global energy transition to Canada's unique role in global energy security. Joe helps us make sense of the complexities and why they matter. Joe, welcome to the show.
Joe Calnan:Well, thanks so much for having me on, stuart. I think some listeners to Energy Security Cube might remember that we actually had Stuart on I think that was about a month and a half ago to talk about similar issues and LNG off the West Coast in particular, and we also flagged the upcoming Power Struggle podcast. So great to finally see this rolling Stuart. So and happy again, happy to be on the podcast.
Stewart Muir:Well, thanks, and I really appreciate being able to reach your audience. You span the country, you're internationally significant because people do watch Canada. We're part of NATO, we're part of the G7. We're a real player there and your organization I know you're in Ottawa today is one that delves into these important issues at the intersection of energy and security. So I just want to kick things off with a big question, kind of an obvious question what is energy security?
Joe Calnan:Well, that's kind of an unfair question, stuart, because I mean there's many definitions. Of course, you can follow the IEA's definition, I believe that is reliability of affordable energy. Affordable energy, but you can follow. For example, I think energy security originally was a concept that was brought up by Winston Churchill when they were trying to transition the British fleet from coal to oil. Yeah, generally the basics of it are reliability, an affordable price and consistency of supply. That's a long and the short of energy security and energy meaning. Of course, uh, you're talking about oil, natural gas, coal, and but also, uh, the uh, the actual things that are consumed, which are the fuels, which is the electricity, which is the actual work, the movement that you need in order to keep, uh, modern industrialized society going.
Stewart Muir:Sounds like lots for the think tanks and the policy wonks there, but what does this mean for the average Canadian?
Joe Calnan:Well, for the average Canadian it means whether or not you have intermittent rolling blackouts, whether or not you can afford to fill your car up when you go to the pump, whether or not you're able to heat your home in the winter. These are the real things that happen when you're energy insecure. If you're in a country which has unreliable or unaffordable energy, then your standard of living dramatically reduces. And these are the basics of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs Making sure that you don't die of exposure, making sure that you can actually move to the places that you need to move to get food, making sure that your food is even grown in the first place and is even able to get to the market these are all aspects that are affected by the security of your energy. So long story short. Energy security affects every single thing that you do in industrialized society and has ever since the Industrial revolution.
Joe Calnan:Essentially, Okay, if it's so obvious and anyone can see this. What do we need you for? Well, it's one of those things that I feel as though people, because they're so comfortable with having everything basically provided to them, you't think about how an electron gets from where it's produced a natural gas fired power station all the way down the power line to you know, go through the filament in your light bulb to provide light. People don't have to think about that. There's been a huge array of very intelligent people who have allowed this to happen, and now people take it for granted, and I suppose people like me are meant to try to force. Now people take it for granted and I suppose, uh, people like me are are meant to uh, try to force them, not to take it for granted, to remind people, even here in Canada, that energy security is a uh, a crucial aspect of maintaining our standards of living and maintaining just generally the sort of life that people enjoy living here in Canada.
Stewart Muir:Joe, for you as a researcher, what was the light switch moment where you just realized this was an area that you wanted to spend a lot of time on? Can you tell us that story of how you got into this?
Joe Calnan:Well, I've been involved in energy for a long time.
Joe Calnan:I was born and raised in Calgary, Alberta, but like most Canadians, of course I mainly took it for granted and of course I had been working for CGAI for a little while before this happened.
Joe Calnan:But I think the real light switch moment was and this is much more of like a geopolitical foreign affairs issue but it really opened things up to my conception. So what this actually means is the lead up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, when Russia was beginning to use its dominance over European natural gas supply to try to prevent really the West from coming into the war on the side of Ukraine. So Russia was trying to undermine European society, in particular by constraining natural gas flows through the various pipelines, and that was supposed to cause this sort of economic damage in Europe that would prevent the sort of response to Russia's invasion that we've seen. So that was the real draw in for me, where energy security stopped being just an aspect of what I was doing at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute and became kind of the main role that I see myself playing in kind of the Canadian policy landscape here.
Stewart Muir:Yeah, it seems like a case where energy security is not this sort of abstract background element. Maybe it's in everyone's life, but you don't really see it or talk about it. Suddenly it's one of the pieces on Putin's chessboard of power politics.
Joe Calnan:Yeah and quite a few people would criticize me, because there's a number of people who have been flagging this for years that Germany in particular is vulnerable to this and this is actually. If you look at the history of those pipelines, you'll see many decades of, specifically, american decision makers telling Europe that this is a bad idea and European decision makers by and large going with kind of the more economic argument about never interfered with natural gas supply to Western Europe and Central Europe until this exact moment. So, to be fair, they weren't necessarily wrong, but they were just wrong about Putin specifically.
Stewart Muir:I just want to put Canada into the international perspective, because it's a big part of what you do A country that's often seen as an energy powerhouse or the potential to be one, and it's not without vulnerabilities. So what do you think is the biggest challenge or challenges that Canada faces right now in achieving energy security in a way that we can feel safe and comfortable with?
Joe Calnan:Well, there's a few challenges, of course that come to mind safe and comfortable with. Well, there's a few challenges, of course that come to mind. I'd say the number one challenge is our inability to complete infrastructure on time and on budget. Our inability, specifically with energy infrastructure has been very difficult for Canada, but this is truly a North American issue. We can be frank even down in the United States they have a very difficult time with infrastructure. And if we have a staggering of big new sources of energy demand with an inability to actually build the infrastructure to service that demand, you can have major energy affordability and energy reliability issues. So that for sure is one of the huge issues. And this isn't even just oil and gas pipelines, isn't even just LNG facilities and oil terminals. This is also major pieces of transmission infrastructure. This is also nuclear power plants and hydropower plants. So even sort of the technologies that we're going to be relying on to try to reduce emissions are also implicated in our inability to actually build things. So that's number one. Number two, I think there's also the concern of our and I'm not saying necessarily this is, this has been done for negative reasons but reliance on the United States for many of our trade of energy in general. So, for example, the United States is Canada's largest supplier of oil. Canada is also the United States' largest supplier of oil and it's interesting how that kind of works out, because the United States supplies Canadian oil through the ports on the Atlantic, whereas Canada sends oil down to the United States through pipelines into the Midwest. So it's kind of an interesting dynamic where we're each other's largest sources of oil and since oil is the number one energy source in North America, that has huge implications.
Joe Calnan:Like I said again, canada-us energy relationship one of the most stable in the world, quite literally the largest energy trade relationship in the world.
Joe Calnan:There's no other bilateral energy trade relationship that comes close In terms of our economic partnership with the United States. It's a long-term project and it's not going to be disrupted by any single dispute or any single clash of personalities north and south of the border. But we should also recognize that in terms of our security of supply, but also in terms of our security of demand, it is a little bit of a risk to have this one single partner play such a dominant role in that. But that's way upstream of these sort of infrastructure issues that I'm flagging. I think the infrastructure issues are probably the larger concern overall. If we are able to manage that for example, build larger pieces of energy infrastructure, big infrastructure corridors, for example, across Canada I think Canada is extremely well set up to handle any sort of energy security issue that comes at us. So overall, if we accomplish, if we're able to manage the infrastructure build-out that we need, then our energy security issues are very minor compared to pretty much anywhere else in the world.
Stewart Muir:Yet there seems to be a feeling of uncertainty now with the tariffs. Will that apply to certain sectors in Canada, to all sectors? Will we work it out as friends, cousins, neighbors, the way we typically have done in the past? What's the sense you've got? You're in Ottawa this week from who you're talking to?
Joe Calnan:There's truly varying perspectives on how this will play out to. There's truly varying perspectives on how this will play out and from my sense of having conversations here in Ottawa but also looking at the news, there's some different perspectives on this. Overall, You'll get the gamut from people who think that there's no way that Trump would ever put tariffs on major integrated industries such as oil and gas to the people who say that this is actually a crucial part of Trump trying to divide and conquer both Canada and Mexico, trying to play us off against each other both us and Mexico, but also the federal government as well as the provinces. So I talked to Politico not too long ago I was in their Ottawa Playbook newsletter about this issue specifically, and I guess my recommendation is that we can't allow this to divide us Like.
Joe Calnan:The most important thing is to maintain a strong negotiating position, but also to continue stressing that we are deeply invested in continuing to be a strong energy security partner with the United States. There is some thought that the United States would provide exemptions to Canadian oil and gas, and there's also been some unfortunate chatter out of Ottawa about the idea of improving our negotiating position by putting excise tariffs on Canadian oil and gas exports, and I think that that is a truly foolish idea. So I think that we should really disavow the idea that if there is an exemption, we should do something like that. Do something like that yes, that would be. It would be very, very bad for the Canadian economy if we, if we managed to, you know, tax our own oil and gas exports.
Stewart Muir:So is there anyone in Ottawa who is sort of secretly welcoming? You know, thank you, trump, we'll be able to blame you for reducing the size of the Canadian oil sands, which, you know, certain political parties seem to just enjoy disparaging and would like to go away. I mean, it's a serious question. Is there someone who's enjoying Trump wanting to punish Canada? If that's what Trump does, I hope he doesn't.
Joe Calnan:Yeah, yeah, I'd say that. I'd say that in general, everybody's kind of afraid for their jobs, right, like if Trump does put these 25% tariffs on across the board, then that will be severely punishing for Canada's economy. So I'm I don't think that I've gotten the sense from anywhere here in Canada that the broad, broad brush of these tariffs are a good thing. If it was specific to oil and gas, then maybe some people would be happy that the United States has decided to punish dirty Canadian oil, as they frame it. But just a note on the oil and gas emissions cap.
Joe Calnan:I really recommend people to read the full regulatory statement. You can find the social cost of carbon that they've chosen to do their calculations on the cost benefit analysis and their estimate for the social cost of carbon that they choose in order to have a positive cost benefit analysis on the emissions cap framework. It's something like I believe it's $330 US like 2023 US dollars per ton, and let's compare that with our regular carbon tax, which is planned to go to about 170 Canadian nominal dollars per ton by 2030. So we're talking about the oil and gas emissions cap in order to have a positive cost benefit analysis when you integrate all of the social cost of carbon. You need to have essentially a carbon price that is accounting for inflation around three or four times the rest of the economy, which is just absolutely absurd that this is even being considered.
Stewart Muir:And put another way, that would be about 10 times the current price of the carbon tax in Canada.
Joe Calnan:Would that be?
Stewart Muir:roughly Close to that. Yeah, so you're saying that the numbers don't add up? Let's come at that a different way, because it's complicated. There's a lot in this, joe and. I want to help people understand it, because I think it's important to get that understanding. So let's just break it down. The federal government itself has calculated that for their emissions cap to be economically in line with what they say its goals are, you will have to have a price on carbon that is 10 times higher than it is today.
Joe Calnan:In order to reduce oil and gas emissions and specifically isolating oil and gas emissions from the rest of the emissions in Canada, and to force the oil and gas sector to basically carry the entire emissions reduction load that the Canadian government wants the entire Canadian economy to go through. In order to force the oil and gas sector to reduce emissions to meet our emissions targets without punishing the rest of the economy, they're forcing the oil and gas companies to bear a much higher cost of carbon than the rest of the economy does. That's essentially what the oil and gas emissions cap would have to be.
Stewart Muir:And that's going to drive up the cost of the fuel I put in my car.
Joe Calnan:Yes, yes it would. They would have to buy emissions credits that are much more expensive than the rest of the economy. So, yes, it would end up impacting downstream fuels prices here in Canada, certainly.
Stewart Muir:Now it wouldn't be too hard to find someone who would say well, that's a good thing, we don't want you driving that gasoline car. We wouldn't have to work very hard, joe, to find someone who would say that Canada's energy sector should just pivot entirely to renewables. What's your response to that?
Joe Calnan:Well, I'd say that I of course believe that climate change is happening. I of course believe that climate change is happening and it's a major threat to Canada. It is a problem that we're going to have to deal with on a global scale, but just pretending as if we can switch our entire energy system over to electricity with a drop of a hat, it's going to be an extremely difficult process and it's going to be a much more difficult process than they think it will be. So, even with this emissions cap, even with this emissions cap which effectively puts a, you know, $330 per ton 2023 carbon price on the oil and gas sector, we're still not anticipating production to go down very much, and the reason for that is because oil and gas production in Canada is still competitive at those prices.
Joe Calnan:Of course, we could see delays in projects. We could see potentially some projects closing before they originally intended to, but the oil and gas is still a very important and, especially for Canada, an extremely important fuel, extremely important energy source for our enormous fleet of gasoline and diesel powered cars and trucks, but also for heating our homes. Even in the Maritimes, we've seen a major drop, or, you know, we've seen a politically motivated reduction in carbon pricing on fuel oil used for heating homes. So obviously that's not reducing emissions on that side. Where it comes to people actually heating their homes is not much of a priority, comes to people actually heating their homes is not much of a priority. But let's just say that we can't anticipate the demand for these things going down, even if we force people to pay a much higher price for them.
Stewart Muir:You mentioned experts like Daniel Yergin, the world famous author, the authority on how oil got to be this modern must have in our lives, and Javier Blas, a journalist who brings the most fascinating insights, and I love to read his articles too. So you've had these energy realists. They know, like you know, that we're in a world of competing views, and often very strongly and passionately held ones. When you encounter someone who really wants to challenge you and say, joe, you're wrong about things. We just need to drop everything and get there to this net zero even quicker than some of these commitments, what is running through your mind and what do you say?
Joe Calnan:Well, I generally I try to explain how much of the energy they actually. Well, when we're talking about consumption of energy it's kind of complicated how much of the heat in their homes is often from natural gas, how much of the electricity that they use at night, because in nighttime, especially here in Canada during the winter, you don't usually get power from solar. You might get a little bit from wind. In a lot of Canada it would be hydro, but we're having issues building new hydro power plants.
Joe Calnan:That's right, natural gas-fired power plants are actually one of the major new load additions across Canada. In Ontario, in BC, in Alberta, all across Canada. Natural gas-fired power plants are kind of meeting load requirements and, of course, you know, fueling their cars. So, for example, there's, there's.
Joe Calnan:I have a number of friends who are, you know, of course, very concerned with climate change and very concerned with with the, with the whole problem of trying to get to net zero, and of course, I'm, I'm I'm on board with that, with the idea of trying to think about our next energy systems and how even something like oil and gas could fit into these energy systems. Of course, just the price of gasoline, it's just something that's right in your face. When you're driving down the road, you see gas prices. When they're low, people feel more economically free, they feel as though they're able to travel further, they can do more things. It is just generally perceived for a regular person as a net positive thing.
Joe Calnan:But when they're high, people feel like they uh, their standards of living are legitimately dropping very fast. Uh, they feel as though they they aren't as free. They, whenever all of the things, all the errands that they have to do, cost so much more. Just on a basic level, it really uh gets to people so you can understand how, uh you know you can use that kind of as a basis to say that, of course, transitioning our energy systems is something that's happened before. We can start to think about electricity and how to manage the build out of the grid, all of those other things that are necessary to try to reduce emissions. But you also have to consider that the incumbent infrastructure can't go away just like that without causing a true, well, societal collapse. Basically, if we snap our fingers and decide to delete all of our natural gas and oil infrastructure, it just things wouldn't get where they need to go and you would not be warm anymore.
Stewart Muir:So that's you know the short of it. Well, joe, ever since Putin invaded Ukraine in the most recent invasion in 2022, we've seen a succession of international leaders come truly cap in hand to Canada to say you are an energy superpower, or at least you have in the ground in your country, the makings of being able to help us who don't have the energy security we need.
Joe Calnan:Yeah Well, canada, for all of our flaws and we do self-criticize quite a bit and I criticize the Canadian government quite a bit Canadian federal government, canadian provincial governments. I've given a lot of criticism If people listen to my podcast they can hear it all the time but really, ultimately we are one of the most trustworthy countries in the world. We have a stable democracy, we have a thriving civil society. We of course have some issues with inability to build infrastructure and some uncertainties around. You know the infrastructure build itself, but once infrastructure is built, then we are essentially one of the most reliable suppliers of energy in the world.
Joe Calnan:We have been supplying energy to the United States for ever since the well, for longer than this, but since the 1950s we've had these enormous pipelines going from Alberta down into the Midwest and then from there down to the US Gulf Coast. We of course have the Trans Mountain Pipeline, which recently got upgraded so that it's now an oil export pipeline, and we are becoming an increasingly reliable partner for countries in Asia, all going that way. Of course, we have the offshore oil facilities offshore Newfoundland and that's integrated with the US East Coast and further abroad. So we're seeing especially where it comes to oil. But this provides for a credibility on things like LNG.
Joe Calnan:We're seen as this reliable partner who will not just turn against partners in the same way that Russia did. We don't have some sort of grand geopolitical goals of conquering our neighbors. We're not ones for trying to distort the market. We're very much pro market. We benefit from the international trading system, so we're not trying to distort the market. We're very much pro-market. We benefit from the international trading system, so we're not trying to undermine that either. So ultimately, we're reliable, trusted partners, especially democratic partners, and we can really provide a lot of value to countries both in Europe but also in Asia and around the world.
Stewart Muir:Well, I'm glad you're giving credit where it's due and I think that speaks to the balanced approach that you take in all your work. And I've certainly seen that you know recently. Our organization's Power Struggle is an adjunct of the Resource Works Society and your organization partnered with us to bring the president of Poland to an audience in Vancouver at a time when missiles were literally flying over a corner of Poland from.
Stewart Muir:Russia into Ukraine. I don't think that went on for too long, but it added charge to that moment when the president took the stage and shared his hopes that Canada could help Poland. That was a moment that felt very raw and real to me.
Joe Calnan:Yeah for sure, the Polish people and the Polish state. They have been stepping up in a big way in defense of this Western idea of democracy, and you know the rules-based order. These are, of course, things that Canada believes in sincerely. They've been dramatically increasing their military spending since the beginning of the war and they are really a force for good, I think, in Europe right now on that front in terms of maintaining and pushing to maintain our support for Europe, and I think they'll play a very good role with the new Trump administration in convincing the Trump administration not to fully abandon Europe. So I'm a big fan of the polls. But Canada can, of course, play a role in providing LNG to the Polish state, but there's some barriers that need to be overcome there, of course, on the East Coast, and I'm sure that you're interested in talking about that too, just when I thought I'd seen everything.
Stewart Muir:I woke up this morning and read in the New York Times that the Russians have just launched a new kind of satellite into the upper part of where satellites circle the Earth. This one is capable of detonating a nuclear warhead that would take out all of the low-orbitine satellites that we depend on for everything from an ATM transaction to a surgeon doing a remote surgery on a live patient. So that would be quite a disaster. It would probably wreak havoc with our electricity distribution systems as well. At a time when we are talking about pivoting the world's energy system to all electricity, this sounds like, among other issues, it's an energy security issue. What's your read on this?
Joe Calnan:Yeah, it's absolutely an energy security issue, and anybody who pays attention to the specifics of how Russia attacks Ukraine would know that Russia is very much interested in attacking very specific points in your electrical systems that are the most vulnerable, the ones that they can take down the grid without having to expend too many missiles. Because, let's say, for example, if you're trying to take down a big power plant, those are major, enormous facilities that even the most powerful missiles can't necessarily take out one head. But if you take out, for example, a transformer or various other pieces of equipment that are much smaller and more exposed, then Russia can you know they'd hit them with a missile and it would take that out, and then Ukraine's had a very difficult time replacing those pieces. But if you're talking about an EMP blast, this is like that, but on a massive scale, and so you have essentially, I believe, every piece of delicate infrastructure that's connected to the grid all fried at the same time because of this kind of power surge and physicists can correct me on that if I'm not getting it quite right.
Joe Calnan:But long story short, we could expect, of course, all the transformers, but ultimately, even within the home quite a few devices can be destroyed and basically it could wreak havoc across the entire region that's affected by this. And there was an idea that I heard recently at a Chatham House Rural Roundtable about and it might have even been on a podcast, so let's see if my memory works very well here but about the idea of the United States creating this strategic reserve of these sorts of transformers, of all the delicate electrical equipment that the United States would need to replace on a massive scale if an EMP blast did end up happening. The thing is that if that does happen, if Russia does use a nuke in outer space, then we might already be in the throes of nuclear war, in which case it probably doesn't really matter, because that's likely the end of human civilization in general.
Stewart Muir:Well, I feel better now. Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry, stuart.
Joe Calnan:But preparing for that, I think, is still something we should think about, just because the benefits if you're right, the ability to recover from that, if it is true that an EMP blast goes off far outweigh the actual cost I think it's something like $15 million in total of buying all this equipment, uh. But one of the complicating factors, though, is that right now, with the energy transition, all of these pieces of equipment, the order books for them are, you know, 15, 20 years long. Uh, you're not. If you order something right now, you're not going to get it until, uh, about, uh, uh, 2044. Until about 2044. So that's a real complicating factor in the energy transition is that you know we're all of the suppliers for this electrical equipment. They're all booked up. Of course, they're probably going to be building new factories in the near future. I would if I were them, with this kind of order book, but it's not something you just snap your fingers and solve right away. So there are periods of vulnerability here that I do worry about, and this is one of them.
Stewart Muir:Yeah, yeah, and putting all of your energy eggs in one basket maybe is something we need to look at, ensuring that we have innovation to decarbonize the reliable fuels, but energy security I'm taking away. I want to try to summarize that. It's not just about the environment or the economy. There's more to it Resilience, you know, in these situations you're talking about. So here's the question. I mean, how does Canada ensure its energy systems can withstand future disruptions, whether they're from up there or any other factors? What are your thoughts, Joe?
Joe Calnan:nuclear power resources, pretty much every type of energy you can think of. Canada has it in space, just because we have such an enormous territory and such a wealth of also experience in all of these energy sources. So I'm very happy on that front. But, like I said earlier, there's the issue of ensuring that the infrastructure that we have is fit for purpose. Ensuring that, for example, where we have massive new demands on the load, or like load demand from electric vehicles, from AI, from all of the different well, heat pumps, heat pumps are one issue that doesn't get covered enough, because when it gets very cold, heat pump energy usage spikes enormously. So as we're seeing more heat pumps get installed, we need to pay attention to that, to make sure that we're building enough excess capacity in the grid to handle that.
Joe Calnan:But what keeps me up at night, I guess, is also our relationship with the United States, and I think that it's always been an extremely beneficial relationship, mutually beneficial relationship.
Joe Calnan:But where we have a piece of infrastructure like the Line 5 pipeline now that is truly critical infrastructure and there's been questions about that for years, about the role of the government in Michigan over the Line 5 pipeline and if it was shut down for various environmental reasons, how it could impact consumers in southern Ontario federal government in saying that this is such an area of mutual concern mutual Canada-US concern in terms of foreign affairs that the Michigan government doesn't have jurisdiction over but we still need to keep this in mind that there's many pieces of energy infrastructure between Canada and the United States that have been built up over the years because of this mutual trust and maintaining this mutual trust very crucial.
Joe Calnan:Good relations with the United States are absolutely essential to Canada's economic security, but we need to let's just say it needs to be carefully managed into the future, especially as we see the United States public have a more. I wouldn't call it isolationist, but definitely more well, let's just say that America first is an ideology that isn't going to go away. It has deep roots in the United States and their liberal or general internationalism is less of a concern for the Americans than their own national interests and their own ideas about how to improve their standard of living. So we need to negotiate around that.
Stewart Muir:Well, these next four years are going to be fascinating to watch. Just so we don't leave everyone the impression that you're purely an energy security expert, that's all you ever do. What's your favorite thing about living close to the Canadian Rockies?
Joe Calnan:Oh well, I'm quite outdoorsy, especially, you know. I'd say that there's months in the late summer and early fall where I would really enjoy going hiking, and of course, during the winter as well, and love going skiing out there on the mountains. But generally it's just, it's nice to be able to whenever you're, you know, in various tall buildings in Calgary. Sometimes you'll just turn around and you'll get a glimpse outside the window. The other day I was up on the I don't know, probably just like the 20 something floor of a building in Calgary, and it was 9am and just at that time I looked out the window and the dawn suddenly was just coming right off the mountains and it looked absolutely incredible. It just reminds me how, how blessed Canada is, how blessed, well, how blessed Calgary is. But generally I think this is the general heritage of Canada, the Rockies belongs to all of us and it's just absolutely gorgeous. It really, really hits home why I live here.
Stewart Muir:Yes, and it's a big part of why I think we're all so proud of this country and happy to be here. Look, joe, it's been an enlightening conversation today. Your ability to make these complex ideas and situations more accessible and relevant is a real gift you've got, so I appreciate that you've shared that with us and thank you for joining us today on Power Struggle.
Joe Calnan:Well, thank you so much, Stuart, looking forward to coming on next time.
