Power Struggle
Improving the energy dialogue in Canada (and beyond) through honest, non-partisan, and fact- based conversations.
The energy conversation is personal: it’s in our homes, in our hands, and now, it’s in our ears. Power Struggle invites you to listen in on honest, non-partisan, and fact-based conversations between host Stewart Muir and the leaders and thinkers designing modern energy.
Watch videos at https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
Power Struggle
Unpacking the Energy Landscape with Robert Bryce
Today we welcome Robert Bryce, Texas based reporter, author and documentary producer.
Raised in the oil-rich heartland of Tulsa, Oklahoma, Robert's journey into energy journalism was inspired by early exposure to the industry and guided by his mother’s dedication to making complicated subjects approachable. Our conversation spans the evolution of his career, his compelling book "A Question of Power," and his advocacy for energy humanism, focusing on how these themes impact the lives of women and girls in regions plagued by energy poverty.
We also get into…
- Why nuclear energy and natural gas are key to decarbonization
- The shifting landscapes of nuclear energy
- The global energy poverty crisis and why 3 billion people live “unplugged”
- What he’d do if he was named the “Global Energy Tsar”
- What is Total Bananas Crazy Town?
- Robert’s take on modern environmental NGOs and their impact on energy policy
- How attitudes about nuclear power have changed and why it actually benefits us in the long run
- The real cost and requirements of renewables
Mentioned in this Episode:
Juice - The Documentary
Power Hungry: The Myths of "Green" Energy and the Real Fuels of the Future
Robert’s Substack: Energy, Power, Innovation, Politics
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Stewart Muir on Linkedin
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Video available on Power Struggle’s YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
Today on Power Struggle, we're joined by Robert Bryce, a Texas-based reporter, author and documentary filmmaker With over 30 years of experience in the energy sector. Robert has written six books, including the bestseller Power Hungry. He has co-produced two documentaries, including his latest Juice, power Politics and the Grid. He has delivered more than 500 keynotes and lectures on everything from the energy transition and nuclear energy to natural gas and global mining. Today Robert writes on Substack, which we'll have a link to in the show notes. Robert Bryce, welcome to Power Struggle. Thanks for having me. Glad to be with you, stuart. Thank you, robert. You've had an incredible journey, from journalism to documentaries and books. All of it centered around energy. I'd like to find out what was the first spark that led you into this field.
Robert Bryce:Hey, that's a good question. Well, I'll just give you a quick bit of background. I grew up in Tulsa, in Oklahoma, and so I grew up around the oil sector, because at that time I remember my dad used to drive an old Bonneville sedan that on the front he had a license plate that said Tulsa, oil capital of the world. Well, that was true for maybe 20 minutes, and now that's clearly Houston, texas. But I grew up around oil and gas, you know, hunting quail in the oil field and also just knowing people who were in the business, my dad's friends, and so from a young age I understood how international and how important the business was. But it was really once I started working as a reporter that I saw that there was just an enormous amount of interest in it and that as I was freelancing for many years and I could sell articles to different newspapers and magazines at that time about energy and power, and so that's what I did.
Robert Bryce:And one thing leads to another. I go to a birthday party, I meet a woman who's works for a high technology magazine. I worked for them for a little while, write an article about Enron, and then that led to my first book on Enron, now 22 years ago. And now here I am, six books later, two documentaries and a whole bunch of miles past that and still fascinated by the business. You know it's the biggest and most important industry in the world and every other industry depends on it, so I count myself incredibly lucky.
Stewart Muir:It's such a massive topic energy. How did you find your unique voice in this complexity?
Robert Bryce:Well, I think what I pride myself on I don't know whether it's my voice or not, but it's my angle is the math and the physics, and that is something that, not speaking humbly here at all, no one's ever accused me of being humble but that very few reporters and I do mean very, very, very few who report on energy and power really understand the math and the physics that underlie the entire business, and so I really work hard to make the numbers as as approachable as possible, as understandable as possible. I write for my late mother. She was a native of Oklahoma and a generalist and an avid reader. But I think about who's my audience? Well, you know, I know that a lot of people.
Robert Bryce:I'm thankful that I have an audience, but who do I write for? I still write for Anne Mahoney Bryce because I want to write it in a way that's simple, that she would get it the first time and make graphics that she would understand the first time. So that's how I approach the subject, and I seek to make it as clear as I possibly can, without making it and without using too much jargon. But make the numbers, bring the numbers forward, because they are the key to the entire system. That were the systems that we're talking about.
Stewart Muir:She must've been really proud of you.
Robert Bryce:Well, I like to think so, but she had six other kids and she loved them all more than she loved me, so I don't know. I was the sixth of seven. You know I was neglected as a child, but I don't want to talk about that now.
Stewart Muir:Next time. Robert, in your book A Question of Power, you explore how electricity drives wealth and social progress. Really interesting discussion. What is the most surprising? The most overlooked connection between electricity and global development.
Robert Bryce:Well, the first thing, since we're talking about my mother and I was joking about I'm sure she loved me and she told me she did, but it was one of the things that motivates me and one of the things that I'm really so passionate about is electricity availability, particularly for women and girls. And this is something that came home to me when my colleague Tyson Culver and I produced our first documentary, juice how Electricity Explains the World. And eight years ago we went to India and when we were there we met a woman named Rohana Jamadar, and I've told this story. I write about it in the book, it's in our documentary, but we met this story. I write about it in the book, it's in our documentary, but we met this woman.
Robert Bryce:She lived in a rural agricultural village about an hour southeast of Kolkata and she didn't have electricity in her home until she was in her 30s. She had three children. She had her first child when she was 16. So for most of her life she never knew what it was like to have electricity. And I thought about my own mother and her mother. Her mother grew up on the prairies in Oklahoma my grandmother without electricity.
Robert Bryce:And yet here was a woman in the modern era, who had grown up in a village where they're still using wheat straw and other villages in India where they're using dung for cooking. And I just thought, man, you know, I could not imagine this for my mother, you know. And yet the hardship that they endured. And so that that realization in that book, and it's something that I carry forward now, because I wrote a piece on Substack recently called climatism or energy humanism, in which I make this very point that it's stunning to understand that how much energy poverty there is in the world today. 47% of the people on the planet today live in electricity poverty. There are over 3 billion people who live in the unplugged world, 3.7 billion who live in places where electricity consumption is less than what's consumed by an average kitchen refrigerator in the United States. I mean, it's rampant and yet it's very little, scarcely understood.
Stewart Muir:Suppose we were to close that gap, how long do you think it will take? In years, or is it even possible?
Robert Bryce:Oh gosh. Well, of course it's possible, you know, god willing and the creek don't rise, all things are possible. But let me answer it this way, stuart, because I think that you know. Someone asked me fairly recently about what I would do if I were named the global energy czar. Well, first I'd fire myself because I'm not qualified, right.
Robert Bryce:But if I decided to keep the job for any length of time, what would I do? I would make sure there's enough propane and butane and clean cooking fuels available for all the people living in energy poverty around the world. And that, in theory, could be done pretty quickly if there was will to do it and the money, of course, to do it, because it would not be cheap and it wouldn't be easy. But yet I'll just hit you with a quick fact here, because this is one of the other things that motivates me in my work. More people die every year today on the planet. According to World Health Organization, about 3.2 million people every year die from indoor air pollution. More people die every year from low quality cooking fuels than die from AIDS, hiv, diabetes, cholera and malaria and tuberculosis combined. I mean, it's truly incredible.
Stewart Muir:It's a staggering toll. Robert, you've been a strong advocate for what you've called the end-to-end path.
Robert Bryce:Yeah.
Stewart Muir:Natural gas to nuclear as the most realistic way to cut carbon emissions. How does that work?
Robert Bryce:Well, I think it could work fairly easily if there were the political will and the money behind it. Now, let's be clear. There is a very wealthy and powerful cadre of NGOs in the United States, and I will name them the Sierra Club, Natural Resources Defense Council, Climate Imperative, Rewiring America. You know, the list is long and the amount of money that they have is measured in billions. I, by my estimate, the anti industry industry, and it is a business, the top 20 or 25 entities. They have budgets of over $4.7 billion a year. It's just a massive business.
Robert Bryce:And they're adamantly opposed to all hydrocarbons, including natural gas. Well, I think that's just wrongheaded in about 100 different ways. If we're serious about decarbonization, wind and solar can't do it, won't do it. There's just, it's impossible, Can't be done, won't do it. There's just it's impossible, can't be done, won't be done. Natural gas is this the resources of is not just abundant, it's super abundant geographically. It's low carbon, it's scalable and relatively affordable. The same is true with nuclear, and I've been saying end to end natural gas to nuclear for 15 years now. If we're serious about this, let's get moving. But you know we have a huge natural gas infrastructure. It would have to grow, Same with the nuclear infrastructure. We're seeing the revitalization of the nuclear sector, but again that won't happen quickly. But there are a lot of promising signs.
Stewart Muir:Now I would expect the environmental movement must be extremely supportive of zero emission solutions, including nuclear as well as renewables. Am I right?
Robert Bryce:No, you know, although there has been something recently from the sierra club, where they have softened their stance on nuclear energy. But remember, these groups have for decades made their careers and made their money by being adamantly anti-nuclear greenpeace being one of the most guilty of the guilty by fear-mong, by, by conflating nuclear energy with nuclear weaponry, by just being fundamentally dishonest about the risks of radiation. And they do it repeatedly and they've done it very successfully. So give them credit for their campaigning. But it has been. They're effectively in many ways, despite the fact that they claim to be climate NGOs, their actions are really antagonistic to decarbonization.
Robert Bryce:So I'm a longtime critic of these groups. I don't like them. I'm sure they don't like me back. I'm okay with that because I think that they are intellectually dishonest and their opposition to nuclear energy has been incredibly destructive and their their promotion of weather dependent renewables and wind energy in particular has been incredibly destructive. And in many cases I think they're just antagonistic to rural America, which again aggravates me because I spend a lot of time in rural America and I've met a lot of people who fight these big solar and wind projects because they care about their neighborhoods and these big NGOs and their many accomplices in the media just want to run over rural America and force them to take these projects that they don't want, and I just think that's unconscionable.
Stewart Muir:I noticed that last year the United Nations climate body included nuclear in its list of technologies for energy that it wants to promote and see more of, so hopefully some of the environmental groups are getting aligned on that today.
Robert Bryce:Well, yes, hopefully I mean again, God willing and the creek don't rise. But I mean, let's be clear, there have been a lot of positive things that have occurred just in the last few months and in fact in the last few weeks, about that are very positive in terms of nuclear energy. So you've seen, here's the list. So Google, Amazon, Equinix, Oracle, all have announced different deals with SMR companies saying they want to build out small modular reactors. Amazon has a has an agreement now to take up to almost a gigawatt of power off the susquehanna nuclear plant for their data centers. Microsoft has a deal with constellation to restart three mile island, pennsylvania. All these are very positive. And then I just updated my list. There are 39 smr companies now, 39 companies globally now that are hoping to deploy SMRs at scale, and that includes everyone from Ross Adam and ALO to Tenatura, Resources, X Energy, TerraPower. It's a big, big list.
Stewart Muir:Right. So this isn't just a fad of the super rich, like having your own space program, I hope.
Robert Bryce:Well, imagine, speaking of that. That's funny that you say that, because imagine if Musk, imagine if Elon Musk said you know we're going to do nuclear. Now you know I have mixed feelings about him. You know he's a child of the subsidies and Tesla. In fact, their latest quarter, I think more than a third of their profit, came from subsidies for EVs. That are tax credits that other companies had to buy from Tesla because of the EV mandates or emissions mandates. But give the guy credit. I mean he's incredibly skilled at building businesses. Starlink is amazing and the SpaceX thing lending that rocket on that gimbal in Boca Chica that was I got to say.
Robert Bryce:I'm not easily impressed, I'm old, I'm cynical, as all day long, but that was damn impressive. I got to say.
Stewart Muir:Just one little last thing I'd like to ask about nuclear how much of the challenge is technology and how much of it is regulation and how much of it is changing minds?
Robert Bryce:I think the minds have been largely remarkably. I think the minds have largely been changed. I've seen a real shift. You know I'm an old guy now I'm 64. I'm social security eligible.
Robert Bryce:You know, when I was a kid, when I was in high school, you know everyone was adamantly anti-nuclear right, anti-nuclear weapons and nuclear energy were the same thing in the kind of the collective mind Today, were the same thing in the kind of the collective mind Today that's not the case. And the younger generation and I say that as the father of 20 and 30-somethings they have a different view on nuclear energy today than I did when I was their age. They didn't grow up under the specter of nuclear war. So I think the hearts and the minds and the attitudes toward nuclear have largely been changed and the polling supports this. But what are? The attitudes toward nuclear have largely been changed and the polling supports this.
Robert Bryce:But what are the challenges for nuclear? And this is the part that, adamantly pro-nuclear as I am, I'm very sober about what it's going to require to get a full-scale revitalization of the business. And remember, stuart, the industry didn't die over a year or two or wither, rather it withered over decades. So it's going to take decades for it to come back. And what has to happen? Well, you have to have the capital, you have to have the regulation, you have to have the fuel and then you have to have the supply chains. But all of those have to happen together and it won't be quick, cheap or easy.
Stewart Muir:I noticed you've been pretty complimentary about some of the technologies you've seen outside of the US, including in Canada.
Robert Bryce:Well, if I were going to bet on which tech, which companies are the ones that are going to succeed or deploy the soonest, Canada is going to be in the lead. I don't think there's any doubt about that. I mean, you see Ontario power generation. Now Are you in BC? Is that right?
Stewart Muir:Yes, west Coast.
Robert Bryce:Yeah, right, well, yeah, the California of Canada, indeed. But you see, in Ontario, with Ontario Power Generation, their plans to double the size of the Bruce Power Station. You see them building the BWRX-300. In fact, they're planning on building four of them. That will be the first deployment of a small modular reactor in North America. They're planning on building four of them at the Darlington plant. Now, why they're building the BWRX instead of more can do's I don't know. But you know Canada has a lot of advantages. You have that can do reactor, which is a great design. You have more uranium than you can say grace over. Your uranium deposits are world class. And you have government alignment with the nuclear sector on deploying more. And you have the public behind it. So I think, all of these things, canada is going to be one of the leaders of the nuclear comeback in the West, along with a handful of European countries, including probably France, poland, romania, estonia and maybe a couple of others.
Stewart Muir:You've used the phrase total bananas crazy town to describe natural gas bans, and we've actually seen this practice spread into Canada, including right here in Vancouver. Those are strong words. Can you explain? Total bananas, crazy town total bonkers crazy town.
Robert Bryce:Total bananas crazy town. Yes, pick your, pick your, pick your your crazy town. It's total crazy town. It's look, the idea that we should take all of the demand away from the natural gas grid, which delivers any staggering amount of energy, particularly during cold periods, and put that all on the electric sector, on the electric grid. It is a recipe for disaster. To put the numbers into context here in the united states, during the coldest days of winter, the gas grid delivers twice as much energy to consumers as the electric grid does during the hottest days of summer. So I did the calculations during the cold snap just last January here in the United States, on a single day, the amount of energy that was delivered by the gas grid during the cold snap I think it was in January it delivered the equivalent of 20 million barrels of oil over a 24 hour period. I mean it's just a staggering volume of energy, staggering amount of energy that kept people safe and warm in their homes.
Robert Bryce:And so this frankly idiot idea, I mean I just can't. I can't come up with strong enough words to describe how, how dangerous this concept is of electrifying everything, and it's being pushed by a bunch of dark money NGOs that don't reveal their funders, don't reveal their funding. They operate in secrecy and they are largely in secrecy and they're very powerful within the biden administration here in the united states and they've been very effective at pushing this agenda and give them credit for their success. But what they're pushing is a recipe for disaster and yet they're not accountable and I I've uh. They don't want to talk about it. They won't. You know they don't respond to my uh inquiries. It's just, you know they want to operate as this independent, non-governmental organization. That's not accountable. But the policy they're pushing is bad, terrible for energy security and it's regressive on the poor and the middle class. I could go on.
Stewart Muir:Well, there's been some uptake of this concept at the municipal government level. Take of this concept at the municipal government level and those counselors or older people are evidently convinced that they need to get natural gas out of their system to reduce emissions and there's no choice. Are there other choices if they wanted to reduce emissions?
Robert Bryce:My view on the emissions. Part of this is let's reduce the carbon intensity of the electric grid first, without shutting off these other opportunities before they're ready or demanding decarbonization of sectors before they're ready. So let's assume we had enough nuclear energy to go around and we could revitalize the grid, and we have SMRs everywhere and we have a surfeit of electricity available at the local, state, county levels, federal levels. Well then I would say okay, well, maybe we don't need as much natural gas. But the other thing that I would add is that we have to be very, very careful about relying too heavily on one source of energy. Churchill said it more than 100 years ago energy security lies in variety and variety alone. We need to make sure that we have a diverse, we have diverse sources of energy, because if we rely too heavily on one, it's a recipe for disaster.
Stewart Muir:In Smaller, faster, lighter, denser Cheaper that's a great title. You explore how innovation constantly outpaces doomsayers, and I think that ties into this topic of relying on only one choice. What's the next big innovation? Do you see coming down the pike, robert, that maybe we're not seeing yet?
Robert Bryce:You know, if I knew what the next innovation was and it was going to be a game changer I would be rich, right, I would be. I'd own your podcast, I'd own everyone else's podcast. I'd be richer than Musk. So I'm.
Robert Bryce:You know, my crystal ball is as cloudy as anyone else's. I will say, the thing that has been surprising to me in terms of its uptake and effectiveness has been batteries grid scale batteries, and we've seen it here in Texas where they've been able to do some peak shaving and have been pretty active in grid management. So that has been an interesting development and an innovation that I thought I'd been skeptical about. Now am I still skeptical about it in terms of being able for seasonal and months-long storage, that you can shift storage and use storage over a multiple-month period? Yes, I'm still very skeptical about that. Further I'll add and it's something I've written about a lot and talked about a lot is our land-use conflicts we've seen now across the country, including Escondido. California just recently banned or passed a resolution against battery electric storage systems. So you know, these batteries are gaining in popularity, they're proliferating around the US and in Canada as well, but they have a very bad habit of catching fire and that's not a good thing.
Stewart Muir:So banning battery storage, banning natural gas? We've seen wind farms either banned or not get approved. We've seen pipelines stopped or banned. Seems like if it's to do with energy, someone wants to ban it.
Robert Bryce:Well, I'd catch it this way Land use conflicts are the key right. Energy policy determines land use and land use determines energy policy. They're two sides of the same coin, and I have documented on my website, robertbricecom, and I've written about it on my sub stack, robertbricesubstackcom many, many times. And now we're over 735 rejections or restrictions of wind or solar projects in the United States since 2015. United States since 2015.
Robert Bryce:All of these energy projects, whatever they are whether it's nuclear or radioactive waste, or oil and gas drilling, or wind and solar batteries all of them have to be put somewhere.
Robert Bryce:But one of the main reasons why I'm so pro-nuclear, pro-natural gas, is they have relatively small footprints.
Robert Bryce:The problem and it is an unavoidable and an incurable problem with wind and solar is that they require massive amounts of land, and the only way, the only way they can scale up is by appropriating more land to be covered with wind turbines and solar panels. And we see all across the us. We see all throughout canada, where, in alberta you probably heard about this just in march, the provincial government announced a ban on all wind projects within 35 kilometers of the Rocky Mountains, and they also had a ban on big alt energy projects taking up ag land. So that's in Canada, you know, in Ontario you have nearly 100 communities have declared themselves, or that's Alberta, in Ontario, meanwhile, you have nearly 100 communities declaring them unwilling hosts to wind projects. So let's be clear there's no free lunch. But the problem with alt energy and I don't call it green, I don't call it clean, I don't call it renewable alt energy isn't required. It requires massive amounts of land and that cannot, will not change.
Stewart Muir:We've chosen a name for this podcast power struggle that. As I listened to you today, I'm thinking we got the right name. Any advice for how we can succeed in this power struggle conversation?
Robert Bryce:Well, I think, sure, and I've had the Power Hungry podcast for many years. I've suspended it now because I just didn't have enough time to devote to it. But I think have guests on that really understand the math and the physics and understand what what these projects mean to local communities. That's the other thing that I think is important. Um, you know, you see, you have them in canada, you know a lot of them. Uh, esther reitman, I think, is now in nova scotia, or uh, she's in eastern canada, fought a wind project in ontario for many years.
Robert Bryce:Um, those I love those people. I, I think you know, know what. So what I would commend to you is so much of the energy discussion and power discussions happen with privileged academics who don't know anybody who lives in, you know, rural America that they don't have any connection, or or even policymakers, and those people matter, and yeah, they're. You know a lot of very smart folks. I give them that. But I think it's important to have a mix of people who represent different viewpoints on what these projects mean, both from a land use impact and also from the kind of the 30,000 foot policy angle. So I guess I'm going to boil it down Don't, don't be too much of a policy walk.
Stewart Muir:All right, we will see if we can live up to that challenge. I completely agree. You've worked on a lot of projects, robert, from books, documentaries, speeches. You travel around the world. I saw you got headlines in Chile recently. If you could pick just one thing, you've done one project that defines your career and your goals. What would it be?
Robert Bryce:Well, it's my family, it's not my work. Your goals, what would it be? Well, it's my family, it's not my work. You know, I'm Lauren, my wife Lauren. I've been married 38 years. I'm, you know, incredibly proud of her. She's a teacher, a photographer, a master potter and our three kids I'm you know. That's really what matters in my life.
Robert Bryce:I'm happened to be a journalist and I'm very lucky to do what I do and incredibly fortunate to be able to travel the world and incredibly privileged I was. In fact, I flew back from Idaho Falls yesterday and we flew out of Idaho Falls and the sun was just coming up and I looked out the window and I thought, damn, it's just incredible. I took a couple of photos because we ride on rocket ships and we just take it for granted, and it was just an incredibly beautiful morning and I took those photos and I sent them to my, sent them to Lauren and other people, just because I thought this is just incredible what we do. But I've even gotten off track about you know what, what the question was. But I'm rapsing about about my family, because I am incredibly fortunate.
Robert Bryce:I'm incredibly fortunate to do what I've done in my career and I'm proud of all my books. I'm proud of the documentaries that I've been able to work on. I'm proud of the. I do a lot of speaking engagements. So I'm proud of all of the work that I do and hope that it makes something of a difference.
Stewart Muir:Well, let's go back to that energy poverty gap 3 billion people in the world who don't have what we in North America, most of us, have. Are you an optimist or a pessimist on that?
Robert Bryce:Oh, I'm all day optimistic, stuart. I'm to quote the late Molly Ivins, I'm optimistic to the point of idiocy. We're trending in the right direction. We have, there's, no shortage of resources around the world, and we are incredibly good we, the people, we, all of us are incredibly good at making those resources more and more available, and I think we will. Now are the obstacles enormous? Sure, they're incredible, and corruption is one of them. There's no doubt about it. Look at Cuba, look at Lebanon, before the war, of course, but you know, corruption is the enemy of light, theft is the enemy of light, and so there are many obstacles to getting more people, bringing more people out of the dark and into modernity, but the trends are in the right direction, and so I'm stupidly optimistic and insanely optimistic about the future.
Stewart Muir:Last question for you. Sure, the growth of LNG has been a phenomenon in the American and Canadian we hope soon energy sectors. But there's a lot of questions, there's frictions in this. Let me ask you straight out then LNG is it good for the global climate to have LNG available to the world?
Robert Bryce:Hell yes, absolutely. You know these anti-Lng people. You know again, they're these climate ngos. They're just opposed. They're not opposed to lng, they're just opposed to hydrocarbons, and I think they're fundamentally anti-human. They're neo-malthusian, uh, anti-humanists.
Robert Bryce:And uh, the world needs more energy and that is not going to change. And these, these claims oh, we should use less. Well, no, we, the people, we, we should not use less. There are too many people living in dire energy poverty around the world. We need more energy, regardless of what you think about climate change. We're not going to use less. We need more to make sure we can stay safe and comfortable in the years ahead. So exports of LNG from North America, and now, particularly given the war in Ukraine, they're absolutely critical. The US is now the number one supplier of LNG into Europe since Russia invaded Ukraine. We're just going to tell the Ukrainians, or tell the rest of Europe oh go, stuff it, I'm not going to no, that natural gas needs a home, and it's going to find a home in Asia, but it's also going to find a home in Europe, and damn well it should.
Stewart Muir:Robert Price, it's been a great conversation today. I hope you can come back sometime. There's so much we've just started to uncover here.
Robert Bryce:Happy to do it anytime, Stuart.
Stewart Muir:Thanks for coming on. Power Struggle.
