Power Struggle
Improving the energy dialogue in Canada (and beyond) through honest, non-partisan, and fact- based conversations.
The energy conversation is personal: it’s in our homes, in our hands, and now, it’s in our ears. Power Struggle invites you to listen in on honest, non-partisan, and fact-based conversations between host Stewart Muir and the leaders and thinkers designing modern energy.
Watch videos at https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
Power Struggle
Turning Waste into Wealth with Sustainable Technology // Barinder Rasode
Barinder Rasode is turning waste into wealth.
As CEO of Tersa Earth Innovations, she’s pioneering new ways to extract resources from mining waste, all while advocating for her community.
With experience in government, health care, female empowerment, and environmental solutions, Barinder bridges the gap between thriving economically and being environmentally responsible.
In this episode we get into:
- The future of mining and Barinder’s mission to turn waste into wealth through Tersa
- What it was like being selected as a top innovator for the World Economic Forum and UpLink - World Economic Forum Sustainable Mining Challenge
- Why choosing between industry profit and the environment is a choice we can’t afford to make
- How SheTalks is empowering 600+ women to lead
- Her top advice for navigating a start-up in Canada
- The trend that is a risk to democracy
- Why young people don’t want to be associated with the engineering field and why it matters
- Her definition of legacy and the impact she wants to leave behind
Mentioned in this Episode:
- Tersa Earth Innovations
- She Talks
- 10 International Women’s Day events you’d be crazy to miss (CNN, 2015)
Follow us and our guest on social media:
@BarinderRasode on X /Twitter
@barinderrasode on Instagram
@sjmuiron X /Twitter
Stewart Muir on Linkedin
Reach out to us with thoughts, questions, or ideas at info@powerstruggle.ca
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Video available on Power Struggle’s YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/@PowerStrugglePod
I'm Stuart Muir. Welcome to Power Struggle. My guest today is Berender Rissoti, a person who's worn many hats she's been a city councillor, an entrepreneur and now CEO of Tursa Earth Innovations, a company that recovers metals from mining wastewater and then cleans it up. Brenda's work blends innovation, sustainability and leadership. She's always ahead of the curve in my experience, breaking new ground across industries. Brenda Rossotti, welcome to Power Struggle.
Barinder Rasode:Thank you, stuart. It feels odd that you call me a guest, because so many of these things we work on together.
Stewart Muir:Well, that's true and full disclosure to the audience. We are partners in Tercer Earth Innovations and we'll talk about that as we go along, and we've done work together over the years on a lot of different projects.
Barinder Rasode:Yes, very like-minded on energy transition, the environment, social projects. So very like-minded as much as we are different. I think that's a gift and I think that the conversation we're going to have will show our differences but then also show our likeness.
Stewart Muir:Well, I couldn't have said it better myself. And just to get the interview rolling, I want to dig into one of the secrets of your success. You're always so organized. I want to ask how you organize yourself. Do you have lists? Do you have some magic app? How do you stay so calm, cool and organized all the time?
Barinder Rasode:Well, it's very interesting that you would use the word organized, because I'm not organized in a traditional sense, but I do see the value of delegating and I do see the value of making sure that you're mindful in the moment on whatever you're doing or working for and then surrendering the outcome. You know we do the best we can, but after that I think after you've put in a good chunk of work outcomes aren't something we can get too attached to.
Stewart Muir:So what's a day in the life for you?
Barinder Rasode:Oh well, I'm a morning person, so definitely the doom scroll starts quite early and after that it's come as you go. You know, being a co founder and CEO of a startup, you're not guaranteed what your day will look like and it's just making sure that you can prioritize and have a great team which we do at Tursa Earth that will pick up all the pieces and make sure that things get done.
Stewart Muir:Do you find it challenging to cut yourself off from that doom scrolling? That seems to be more and more of a struggle.
Barinder Rasode:Well, it's very interesting, right? So using the concept that it might not be useful, that's how I get all of my information. Now. I don't have cable TV, I haven't seen a newspaper in years, and so for me, it is where I not only gather information from, but where I get to hear the perspectives of different people from posts.
Stewart Muir:Yeah, so one can debate the usefulness. We try not to waste our time but yeah, we get things in from so many diverse sources. I have to say I have my trap line of sources. You know, my paid subscriptions to leading news publications, for example, but then also all these other mediums. Do you have a favorite?
Barinder Rasode:I do actually Instagram. Okay, do you have a favorite? I?
Stewart Muir:do actually Instagram.
Barinder Rasode:Okay. Even though my feed is increasingly ads, I'm finding that I'm not only getting information, staying connected, but now shopping on Instagram. Maybe this is where it's not useful. Do you use TikTok? Try to stay off TikTok, because TikTok is that dark hole, because it is so engaging and moves so quickly and picks up on your algorithms that that is one platform where I find I could spend more time than I realize.
Stewart Muir:Yeah, you know I haven't taken it off my phone, but I don't go there because what happens is, you know it's like potato chips and me particularly salt and vinegar. You have one and then you know, you just know you're going to finish the bowl, but that's TikTok. Just thinking how we got here after a decade working together, if you look back across the years and said that's the moment, that was a turning point moment for me, that got me to where I am today more than, say, all the other moments.
Barinder Rasode:So for me, I think that after I ran for mayor in 2014, you know, when I ran, I was able to bring some very important issues to the campaign that I think did change the dialogue and the platform of all of those people running. I think if there was a pivotal moment when I first came to work with you at ResourceWorks realizing that people sometimes overly define things as an either or, which is, I think, something that we have to be very concerned with, because it is not an either or. Most things are a balance of all things, and so I think that's been pivotal for me, for the work that I've done since being on Surrey Council is recognizing that, you know, bringing people to the understanding that balance is important and not to make radical choices, being either ors, is very important to our future.
Stewart Muir:Just for some context, you served two terms as a elected councillor of the city of Surrey, british Columbia. You ran for mayor, also of Surrey, and you lost.
Barinder Rasode:I did, and so I was the first South Asian woman, woman of colour, elected to Surrey's council, even though Surrey is predominantly, you know, an ethnic group is the group that I belong to. 2014, I chose to run because of issues around crime, transportation very important to a growing city it's one of the fastest growing cities in Canada and then, in 2014, when I decided to put my name in for mayor, I recognized it was a very long shot, but I also recognized that there is power in creating dialogue and there's power in, you know, having a conversation face to face, versus getting elected to a slate that you don't necessarily agree with and trying to change things in the back room.
Stewart Muir:Well, I remember 2014, when you ran, because that's the first time I met you and I actually was so intrigued with your quest to become mayor of one of Canada's largest cities that I leaned in a little bit and we did some work on how you told your story, and I remember you had a really arresting slogan that was on signs, which I think people stopped and really took notice of, and the slogan was Brenda Rizzotti, one tough mother. Now you're a mother of three children, but you're one tough mother too. What was that slogan all about and how did it go over?
Barinder Rasode:Well, interestingly enough, I am a mother and I lead. With being a mom. A lot of the decisions I make are, you know, keeping in mind what my children's future will look like. They're adults now, so grandchildren as well. I also am not afraid to take a position and stand in it, but more so. Sometimes, with the right facts, change my mind.
Barinder Rasode:So being on municipal council in any city is one of the toughest elected positions, because you are fundamentally one vote out of eight, nine or 10. So your vote has impact. People have direct access. You're not guided by a party platform. My election team actually had representatives from all three major parties, both from the federal and provincial level, and that was because it is okay to be tough when making decisions, because decision making is what's going to move us forward. And if we are caught in this dilemma where we're not able to stand firm or have a clear policy platform that people can understand and follow, you get a lot of disenfranchised voters and a lot of disenfranchised people who feel like the whole process is hopeless.
Barinder Rasode:So I supported things like a road going through 84th Avenue, when the rest of council and the community didn't. It didn't come to fruition during my time, but it since has, because it was a safety issue for the east-west connectors in the city. I was one of the first councillors to come out to support Uber. For me it was access and safety and choices for drivers that wasn't a very popular vote at that time and then also around community engagement. Another thing that moms do and sometimes tough moms do is have people be accountable, to have to come and talk about and defend their position, and so I held the first ever community summit where there was very frank and open conversation, and so that's where it came from One Tough Mother.
Stewart Muir:What resonates for me, especially in the context of what we're doing now with the Power Struggle Project, is what you've just said about the cross-partisan nature of it. I mean, if you get pegged into an ideological or partisan lane, then that can be very alienating to those who aren't in the same lane as you.
Barinder Rasode:Oh, absolutely, and I actually think that that's a big risk to democracy as a whole. I do think that dialogue, the kind of debate we would hear on radio stations or see on television, not only during election campaigns but when there was an issue that was very important to the community and now we're in a position where that isn't happening as much, and I think part of it may be, unfortunately, because the fear of being cancelled. You know, having a strong opinion on something and having to defend it not only refines your opinion, but if you are a true leader, when you're sitting across from somebody and you're actually listening to hear, or hearing to listen, you may pivot your understanding of an issue and refine your argument. There is none of that anymore, and I think that that's a huge risk to democracy.
Stewart Muir:We've gone into. This winner takes all pendulum. It's your turn. You decide everything, and too bad for those other voices.
Barinder Rasode:Absolutely, and I think we have this conversation often. So I'm a woman of color immigrant. I came to this country when I was nine months old. My fear is that if we are not building a solid base where everybody feels included, the pendulum shift that happens is getting more and more extreme. So, versus saying everybody belongs, everybody is equal, we want equity, so some are going to need a little bit more support than others, but we're not excluding anybody. We're not excluding young white men, right. We're not excluding women of color. We are not excluding either an immigrant or a settler or a First Nations person. So how do we build out a policy or policies and a framework where people actually feel supported not only by government, industry, but by their neighbors? And that's, I think, one of the things that I fear is missing right now.
Stewart Muir:After you ran for office the mayor's office you started the she Talks series and you really have a gift, I must say, brenda, for identifying something that others find resonates, because the very first event you did you had, I think, over 200 women. She Talks was aimed at women and obviously Dialogue it's in the name because of your following and the interest in your view, so I've always thought that you connected with people. But what was she Talks?
Barinder Rasode:So, interesting enough, we had 600 people and CNN picked us as one of the top things to do top 10 things to do for International Women's Day that year and the committee and Natasha Ray, who's co-founder, with me.
Barinder Rasode:What we decided is that, again, not either or right.
Barinder Rasode:A successful woman does not look like a woman who has a career in a boardroom.
Barinder Rasode:It could be a stay-at-home mom, it could be a entrepreneur, it could be many things, and one of the things that's really important is when you give women a platform to share their experiences and be vulnerable women would walk away saying I'm going to be okay, because, whether it was Susanna Pierce, who is now CEO of Shell, she's struggling to get her day going, managing personal and work all of the things that other women do.
Barinder Rasode:And so that's to say to women, no matter who you are and how you choose to do things, you're enough and you have the same struggles as other women, and so it's really important to stick to what makes you happy. And then it also created a huge support network for other women. We're really happy that we'll be bringing it back. After COVID, we did take a little bit of a hiatus. It's a volunteer committee, but it is important for women to not only get the stage to talk about things that matter to them and learn from other women, but also to identify that all women, no matter who you are, have so many things in common.
Stewart Muir:You know, during COVID some people learned how to make sourdough bread. We started a company in an area of energy transition and that company is Tursa Earth Innovations. It was quite a time. What's your recollection of how we got that company going?
Barinder Rasode:Well, very interestingly enough, the patented technology that we have licensed from the University of British Columbia.
Barinder Rasode:The research was funded by BRIM, the Mining Centre of Excellence, and Peter Bradshaw, who is in the Mining Hall of Fame, and the technology at that point was bench scale at a research lab at the university bench scale at a research lab at the university.
Barinder Rasode:We incorporated, we built a team, we built a lab. We've raised $6 million, of which 90% has gone to the tech, 10% to lawyers, accountants and rent, and what we have done is built a first of its kind microbial fuel cell that creates a current that is able to extract metals in their elemental form, neutralize water, reduce carbon and give mining companies and government a chance to reduce the liabilities and serving both the community and the First Nations whose lands house these tailing ponds that can have very devastating effects on community. Also, as big as you know, making sure that we clean the earth and making sure that we're not putting people in harm's way is the $3.4 trillion opportunity that the Global Tailings Report outlines of the trapped metals in the waste. So now we are looking at mining companies and saying you now have an opportunity to create wealth out of waste, and that's what sustainability really means, and so I'm really proud of the fact that you had the inventor from UBC reach out to you on Twitter.
Stewart Muir:That's true.
Barinder Rasode:I had just exited from a company called Haven Life, for which I raised $22 million off my couch during COVID, and I said I'd really like to work on a clean tech company, and this is how this great research was pulled out of the university and now being commercialized.
Stewart Muir:It feels in retrospect like the stars did line up for that, brenda, and just recently, I think, there's been a shift in the global mining picture and it comes back to energy, because the metals you reference in many cases are energy metals, and last week I interviewed on a stage the CEO of Tech Resources Limited, one of the biggest Canadian mining companies, who's incorporated a phrase into the core of the company's lingo. The phrase is energy transition metals things like copper lingo. The phrase is energy transition metals things like copper, without which we cannot possibly hope to add electrification in a greater way to the world's energy supply. The other company as well that's added a similar term Valet. It's one of the biggest mining companies in the world.
Stewart Muir:You're seeing this trend of making the connection between sourcing the energy metals and the energy transition. What we're doing at Tursa is really at the heart of that. You've explained the technology. I'd like to ask when you went to Climate Week in New York City and you were talking with people like John Kerry, who heads up the United States Initiative on Climate, what were you hearing? What do you think the realization is amongst the group of those leading thinkers on this issue?
Barinder Rasode:Well, you know, honored that our team's work was recognized and we were chosen as a top innovator at the World Economic Forum's Sustainable Mining Week. I had the opportunity to sit on roundtables with a lot of the industry leaders, including the CEO of Tech, and one of the things is very clear that in order to meet our goals on electrification and carbon zero, we need more metals. And where we're at is at a tragic place where those metals are trapped in the waste and we will not have enough metals to meet the targets unless we're able to mine those metals out. And it's also now become, as John Kerry talks about, one of the biggest political issues around making sure that we are able to access metals in North America and be able to move towards our goals. And I think that what is really important in all of this, as the conversation goes, is we have a momentous task in front of us. Bloomberg last week, at their conference in London, talked about how it's a $2.1 trillion bill to be able to meet our net zero goals. The other part is that if we don't start turning waste into wealth, we won't be able to, and what does that mean then for climate change? And so these are big conversations that are happening and the recognition that we need to do better, but also that we need to do it faster, is a need that Tursa meets.
Barinder Rasode:We have our patented technology, is using nature's solutions to do what we need the microbes to do faster, and we're at a pre-pilot stage and we have some good partners. The other thing we did really well is we, you know, kept our heads down, stayed very focused, because there are other uses of our technology, and we didn't start talking about it until we were at that pre-pilot stage where the unit is now being optimized to go in, and I think that is very important for investors to know that they're not investing in a deck, they're investing in a technology that works, and for the partners and the recognition we've gained, it is because our technology works. We're also very proud of the fact that 80% of our STEM team is women. We have three doctors, phds. That's very rare and that wasn't done by design, but we have just worked with the cream of the crop and that is also, unfortunately, in the year 2024, something that is significant when it should be normal.
Barinder Rasode:So, from a sustainability viewpoint, we are checking the boxes in a number of ways Clean tech, technology, women-led team, sustainability that not only is beneficial to community but generates revenue for industry right away, because the burden cannot be on industry alone. We need metals, our need for metals is increasing, but our pressure that we're putting on those who provide those metals is really causing a delay in permitting, a delay in them being able to get metals to market, delays in which country in the world may be dominating, and so there's a lot of conversations that we are actually a solution for.
Stewart Muir:So it's been four years now, almost since the start of Tursa. What are the biggest challenges in starting a company?
Barinder Rasode:Well, I didn't have as much white hair as I have now, so one of the things that is a struggle here in Canada is market size support or the amount of time it takes to get support from non-dilutive sources like government. A lot of startups are faced with the dilemma that they will build out the technology here in Canada, but they're not considered a real company until they head to the US. I was at an event with 700 founders about a month ago. I won't use the language, but it was pretty much get the beep out of Canada, which I think is very hard for Canada.
Stewart Muir:They were saying if you want to succeed, don't stay in Canada. To succeed, go somewhere else. Yes, probably the United States. Yes, okay.
Barinder Rasode:So a challenge of a made in BC, made in Canada innovation story where really we are the biggest mining industry community in the world. For us to have to think about leaving the country to be successful is a challenge. The other piece was with the interest rates going so high and people parking their money in GICs at 5%. Raising money was really tough. The ecosystem and raising funds was a big challenge.
Stewart Muir:Well, in the United States in the last several years you had President Biden with his Inflation Reduction Act that took hundreds of billions of dollars and put it into investments kind of like the type that would support the work that Tursa has done, Whereas in Canada the similar fund that existed was actually shut down because of concerns about governance of it, and so companies that were expecting funding from that in Canada didn't get it at all, and who companies that were expecting funding from that in Canada didn't get it at all, and who knows how many of these companies maybe just folded up because of that.
Barinder Rasode:Absolutely it does. It illustrates innovation is going to be critical to our success at a number of levels. And the Sustainable Development Fund, which shut down, which was a billion-dollar fund so take Tursa for an example earmarked for potentially $4 million. That's a big hole in a budget for a startup. You know. Now we're at that point where we're working with a partner of ours, silica X out of the US. Have applied for some money in the US and their process is more seamless and respects entrepreneurs. You submit a brief, two-page executive summary. Based on that, they'll tell you whether you will advance to the next level or not. Once you advance to the next level, they really hold your hand. So the support for non-dilutive dollars is very different, whereas here it takes a lot of staff time and resources to fill out the applications and then it's silence for months on end.
Stewart Muir:Yeah, yeah, it's funny being Canada because we're next to the world's most entrepreneurial country and the biggest economy. There's 250 nations in the world. Only two are right next door to the United States of America. We're obviously one of those, and so the comparison, the contrast, can feel very intimidating, and I personally would love to see Tursa thrive in Canada. I would like to see the excitement around technology and innovation applying to the important base and primary industries of Canada that really are the bread and butter of our country, be successful and, you know, get everyone excited about it.
Barinder Rasode:Well, you know. Let's take Climate Week for an example. So Climate Week is not only the UN General Assembly, world Economic Forum meetings. Every clean tech climate group in the world hosts events. Literally, the streets and sidewalks were shut down. But I not only had the opportunity to meet the Duchess of York, who has a fund, but got to attend events where all of the major clean tech funding agencies were present. So it was direct access. Access is very important. So what Climate Week does? It brings the world together, opens doors, provides access, creates meaningful dialogue. But you know, everybody did get there in either a plane or a car. So again, you know, as we're transitioning, recognizing the balance of what the needs of today are and where we need to get to in the future and the tools that we need to do. That was really what I was left with from Climate Week.
Stewart Muir:Last year, you and I, and tens of thousands of others, went to Dubai for the COP28 conference, the conference of the parties, the big climate gathering that's at that international level. That was exciting. I mean, that's really the quest that led me to start Power Struggle. How do we square the circle? How do you square the energy trilemma triangle, but square the circle of our human needs for energy? I mean, that's really what all this is about all those people.
Stewart Muir:Because it has the hotel's capacity, this year, in November, cop 28.9 won't be in Dubai, it will be in Baku, azerbaijan, which doesn't seem to have created the same amount of buzz, because it's not. And what I heard was you can tell me if I'm right on this what I heard was that New York City's Climate Week this year attracted all the people who maybe would have gone to COP29 in November 2024. If it was a more accessible place, they went to New York City. And suddenly, there you are in New York City Climate Week, on the World Economic Forum's stage, talking about the excitement you've got for the technologies of Tursa. What was that like?
Barinder Rasode:You know. So the World Economic Forum's Sustainable Mining Challenge was a rigorous competition. When we got the notice that we were shortlisted, felt very grateful that we got recognized. Then, to get you know the email that's saying well, you've actually one of the winners, was really a moment for us and the team to be proud of. You know, world Economic Forum put us on the world stage. We were the top innovator that was showcased, because what we're able to do is have this self-powered microbial fuel cell that can extract metals and neutralize water, and it speaks to what is needed. So, as government agencies are setting targets.
Barinder Rasode:Going back to the mom reference, which is my favorite reference, is that when a mom decides, or a parent decides, that you're going on vacation, there's a number of things that need to happen. Right, you got to find a date. You need to make sure you have a budget. You need to make sure that there's going to be, it's safe. Is there, you know? Do you have accommodation? Where are the kids going to eat? What are the activities? So it's a whole process.
Barinder Rasode:What Climate Week did for us this year is when you know the leaders were making decisions around what needs to happen next and how it needs to happen. They included innovation and companies like us at those roundtables to provide input. That's where, then, you know, the leader, or the mom or the parent makes this decision that this is what we need and want to do, but what sometimes I think been missing is how are we going to get there right? So, when we set targets around electrification or net zero, they're bold and audacious, as they should be, but what we forget is how are we going to have access to the tools that get us there? And so this is what I found very encouraging about Climate Week.
Stewart Muir:A lot more practical right now.
Barinder Rasode:Yes, and it has to be. It has to be. It's a critical period of time. People want change, industry is embracing change, governments are under pressure, but at the same time, we have to make sure that the energy transition is serving everyone.
Barinder Rasode:You know, I think that one of the things we have to remember is the tears that people have in how they make decisions.
Barinder Rasode:If your home is abundant affordability around housing, affordability around all of your other living expenses then you're able to sort of get to the next tier where you're like okay, now, now I can make decisions on on purchases, because sometimes those sustainable purchases do cost more, because they cost more to produce. So now you're at that tier where you're able to say, okay, now I will pick and choose what products I buy based on the core values that in my heart I have, and then after that you can participate in either dialogue, policy engagement that is not just about your basic needs. So that's the tier at which, then, you have a very engaged community society because you have the luxury to do it. And one of the things I would say is people don't have the luxury. Right now, a lot of people are either worried about their jobs, they can't find affordable housing. Going to the grocery store each week is sticker shock. Forget about thinking about how am I going to buy products that are better for the environment?
Barinder Rasode:How am I just going to get the basic products that me and my three kids need?
Stewart Muir:Yeah, well, thinking of luxury, I mean right now, as we sit here today, there's a provincial election going on in British Columbia. By the time this episode is seen and heard, it will be over, so we don't know how it will land. But I'm struck. I was looking at some information recently.
Stewart Muir:Suppose you want to be part of the future and drive an electric vehicle and you're really rich. You could spend $500,000 and get yourself a Rolls-Royce Spectre $500,000 car, electric, clean as a whistle in terms of emissions. And if you do that, the provincial government which in British Columbia at this point has been a progressive or left of center government they will give you a $100,000 tax gift. They will not charge you the sales tax on that car because it's an EV. Now suppose you wanted to buy the cheapest gasoline powered car. You could find it. That would be probably a $17,000. Mitsubishi Runs gasoline, though, so it creates emissions. If you did that, not only would you pay the sales tax, because you don't get a break on that, you would also pay starting next year, or the dealer who sells it to you would pay a $20,000 fine, because it's not an EV.
Stewart Muir:I just think there's this rush into these policies where it hasn't been thought through fully the implications of it. You know, if you want to do it sustainably which includes not just in an environmental sense but sustainable politically, that sense of fairness in civic politics you spend hours and hours, like dozens of hours a week, sometimes behind the desk in your council chambers working on that. I want to come back to where Tursa is headed and what has been the hardest moment. Because in Silicon Valley they talk about the different highs and lows of starting a startup and inevitably for every startup, whether it's Apple or NVIDIA, inevitably there's some point in the story early on where you've got the great idea, you believe in it, you know it's going to work, but you haven't quite got everyone else signed on yet. How do you keep that inner conviction that you're going to make this a success?
Barinder Rasode:Well, you know that's a whole other podcast on all of the stereotypical startup challenges that Tursa faced, but I think we're past that point. Bhp's Water Challenge you know. Getting a first PO on the World Economic Forum's top innovator you know, great honour. We also now have just been named the global clean tech top 50 clean tech company.
Stewart Muir:These are encouraging signs.
Barinder Rasode:We've got customers. We've got our relationship with the Incadene Economic Development Department, where Reg Ogden has become that's in northern British Columbia. Yeah, not only one of our partners, but also one of our champions. You know, as he said, they are working really hard to make sure that people in the land are healthy for at least seven generations more.
Stewart Muir:Where the moose and the salmon run free and they have a historic legacy tailings situation there that they are hoping to fix in their lifetime.
Barinder Rasode:Absolutely, and you know, the reality is that mining companies did what they knew to do. Well, at that time, nobody intentionally set out to leave the you know $3.4 trillion worth of tailings ponds, or like the breach that happened in Valais or what happened to Victoria Gold in the Yukon. But when we know better, we need to do better, and so why I think we've passed that point of the horrendous startup? Because we are now a company that is moving towards commercialization, with all of the right government, industry, first Nations and community partners.
Stewart Muir:Mining the industry where we get metals and minerals from mining has an image problem.
Barinder Rasode:Absolutely, and that image problem causes a permitting problem. That image causes a problem where mines are operating even though there is no part of our life that doesn't require the metals that these companies are providing to us, whether it's a neonatal unit, whether it's our phone, whether it's the you know transportation bike or car. So definitely, not only does mining have an image problem. Resource extraction in its entirety has an image problem that is causing delays in permitting, and is causing delays to the point where not only are these valuable industries as we're transitioning, you know feeling affected, but so are the supply chain, and so are the things that we need to do to make sure we're cleaning up, because, you know, if the bill is so big for a mining company to go in and clean that waste, how are they going to do it and maintain their bottom line for their shareholders? So this is where Tursa provides a very economical, self-powered, modular, flow-based solution that actually generates wealth for both industry and the community and government.
Stewart Muir:Do you think the scale of mining as well as producing all of the other things that people depend on, including energy products? Do you think the scale is part of the problem here, that it's just so vast that it's hard to get our heads around?
Barinder Rasode:Well, our needs are so vast, what are we going to give up? I don't think vast is the problem, as long as we're making effort to do it in a sustainable way. Everything we do is vast. The conversations now. I remember joining Twitter, I think in 2009 or 2010, and there was like 10 people I knew on it.
Stewart Muir:Well, now that's fast. So the price of public permission to do things is this transaction that, hey, I'll trust you if you're improving how you're doing things, to give you my support for that as a voter. To give you my support for that as a voter, as a citizen, who could raise their voice or not in regards to some project or some general trend.
Barinder Rasode:Well, yes, because it can't be a neither or right. It can't be mining or the environment. It has to be mining and the environment. And back to where we're getting into this culture where the pendulum swings are so extreme on the right and left.
Stewart Muir:that is sometimes actually quite frightening as suppressive person who lives in the center, because people actually view things as an either or, and I don't think there are very many things in life that are you know pretty much everyone I ever meet who's involved in mining has got, when you dig into it, a passionate view about how to do this right, and maybe part of what you're doing should be more on that enlightenment as to meeting not just the material needs of humanity but also meeting people where they are in terms of what they can support they are in terms of what they can support.
Barinder Rasode:Well, absolutely, and I think one of the bigger challenges out there right now is that engineering departments at universities are not attracting students. It used to be a matter of pride. I know people who will go on vacation and not mention to people where or who they work for, even though it's something that they should be quite proud of, because the stigma around how things used to be done in the past, before people knew better, is so great that we're now saying where are we going to find these innovative engineers like the ones who are building Tursa to actually create new ways of doing things, because they just don't want to be associated with those schools?
Stewart Muir:Early in the podcast series we had a professor from UBC, professor Emily Hudder-Kennedy, who's written a book about ecotypes, who was telling me that she's surprised because in her career, more and more she sees young people coming to her classroom who she would classify as eco-pessimists and they don't see hope in the world and what they can do. So if that's what we have and we have what you just mentioned that we're not getting young people going into engineering and these kind of material fields because maybe they're just despairing that there's nothing to be done, that's a very dark place to be going.
Barinder Rasode:Well, it's not only dark, it's also dangerous and disheartening. Because look at you and I. You know we look different. We have very different backgrounds, both in terms of education, where we grew up, our family dynamics, even our views, but one thing we have in common is hope for a better future. When people feel like they don't have an opportunity to be a part of either change or their advocacy is not responded to, people give up. And so those students who are now looking at chemical engineering and other fields, saying you know, we don't want to be associated with that, versus saying, oh, I'm going to go fix that. And I think that's what you, I and our team at Tursa have done. We saw a problem, we saw a potential technology that could address that problem, and now we've taken that and we're going to put it out in the world because we're commercializing this technology. And none of that would have happened if we didn't have hope for a better future.
Stewart Muir:You've made reference to the she Talks project that rallied hundreds and hundreds of women and got international acclaim. You've talked about the Tursa lab team and the three PhDs who are women. When the audience is the younger people who are making those important life choices, what do you think they can take away to put themselves into the story more successfully?
Barinder Rasode:You know, I think it's A about opportunity. So post-secondary institutions, making sure that information is not only accessible but making sure that there's enough space in universities for students. So the departments do need to grow and it needs to feel. I think you know one of the things we know at she Talks is one of the most simple and basic things that women often need is to feel supported. So women get more imposter syndrome. So women will have more qualifications for a position and not apply because they think they're not qualified, versus studies show men will have 60% of the qualifications and they'll be upset they didn't get the job.
Barinder Rasode:So, I think, feeling supported, and supported not only in their home, but supported in school, but creating networks and access to information for these women to feel like you know what I can do this too, and that's what she Talks does, and that is what information around responsible resource development does, when they see people who look like them in those positions.
Stewart Muir:So, brenda, what would you like your legacy to be?
Barinder Rasode:So this is interesting. I had this conversation about legacy. I've had a couple people say to me legacy, that's your ego, and I'm like, no, no, no. Legacy is the opportunity for me to take my purpose and path and make a difference. So I'd like my legacy to be that I was privileged to be able to hold some pretty esteemed positions, either as an entrepreneur or as an elected official or as an activist, that I brought other women along with me and looked at the women who were ahead of me and made sure that they were admired in the way that they deserve. And a legacy for me is implementing fundamental change, which TURSA will do. It will fundamentally change resource extraction as we know it 30 years from now. It won't be a book or a paper I don't know which medium it'll be that people will say, hey, these people actually made a difference.
Stewart Muir:Well, I'm in your corner. Final question for you what's your favorite movie?
Barinder Rasode:Oh well, favorite movie. I can't believe it is actually Inside Out 1 and 2. You know, especially after COVID, I think, a lot of young people. The challenges were really overwhelming. The challenges were really overwhelming, overbearing Our system is so backlogged. And it created an understanding for me on what empathy, love, understanding and how to receive emotions should look like, because we're not taught that in school and I think that that movie has fundamentally changed for a lot of people I know, know how they view and deal with mental illness.
Stewart Muir:Well, look, there's so much more that in the future, I think we'll be coming back to talk about including the progress of the TURSA project. For now, that's all the time we have. Beretta Roussoti, thanks for coming.
Barinder Rasode:Thank you for having me.
